Legalities of VIP inspections/ Inspectors

[captain]

To every individual.


The federal law is prior to an individual right in this case.

You can move the tanks anywhere in your back yard, but LEGALLY (LITERALLY) can't hit a public road. The same logic applies to your car. You can drive your car in your back yard without a registration, but NOT on the public road. That is, the federal doesn't care if you are exploded with the tank in your back yard or not, just NOT in the public property.

You are reading more into the code than there is. The DOT will flat out tell you if you ask, which I have, that a persons own tanks in hydro or not, transported in a personal vehicle do not fall under the federal code. There may be some state codes that prohibit it, but not the US codes

 

[Nemrod]

To every individual.


The federal law is prior to an individual right in this case.

You can move the tanks anywhere in your back yard, but LEGALLY (LITERALLY) can't hit a public road. The same logic applies to your car. You can drive your car in your back yard without a registration, but NOT on the public road. That is, the federal doesn't care if you are exploded with the tank in your back yard or not, just NOT in the public property.

I am sorry but that is incorrect I am afraid, private vehicles not engaged in interstate commerce are not restricted. I can carry my tanks anywhere I like anytime I like.

Additionally, the VIP is not required by the CFRs, it has no legal basis. No state trooper is going to pull me over and hand cuff me because I don't have a VIP sticker on my scuba tank--not going to happen. Likewise private vehicles are not required to have signs on them stating things like Compressed Gas or Hazardous Material or Explosives or Flamable Materials even Baby on Board.

N

 

[PhilEllis]

I think this discussion began as a question about civil liability, which had little or nothing to do with criminal and statutory law. Agreed, the highway patrol will not pull you over for lack of a hydro or VIP sticker on your cylinder. They enforce issues of criminal law. That was not the original discussion based on the question asked by the OP.


Phil Ellis

 

[Tienuts]

Phil just beat me to it. You guys are mixing up criminal law and civil law....

All the State, County, Federal criminal laws, DOT regulations are for criminal court.

Civil court boils down to one thing - Did something you do, or didn't do, cause harm, either directly or indirectly to another? Harm being physical, monetary, emotional, etc... Now this action or lack thereof can involve breaking a law, but not always.

Take the famous McDonald's hot coffee case for example. Where the woman sued for 2 million cause she spilled hot coffee on her lap. What law was broken? I don't know of any laws, or regulations which govern the temperature of coffee. However McDonald's was found liable on a portion of that case - because it was their (documented) practice that they served the coffee hotter than most other restaurants.

So what does this have to do with VIP's? Well in this case was a business, (McDonald's) who was doing something that many other business do (serving coffee) in a different manor (hotter) than most others. They broke no law. They were not following the generally accepted standard of coffee, and were found liable.

Bet your a s s, that if something happened to a tank, regardless of who's fault it was, how or why it happened, the dive shop who filled it last would be part of the litigation. If they uncovered you had ignored a generally accepted practice in the dive community, you'd be in big trouble. Remember, in a civil trial, your fate boils down to 12 people who were not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

Lastly, even if you are sued for something which you have no negligence whatsoever, the problem is you have to defend yourself in court. This costs tens of thousands of dollars, as well as the emotional strain on you.

 

[Nemrod]

No, we are not mixing up crimminal and civil law, you guys are mixed up that there is any law at all.

Why does everyone assume there is always a law for everything to begin with? There is no CFR or law for or requiring scuba shop VIP stickers. When a tank is hydro-ed they are supposed to as a course of action as well visualy inspect it. That hydro is all it needs for five years and as well, if you have your own compressor, you don't need that either and you can carry that tank anywhere you like in your vehicle and dive it in any waters of the land.

As to lawsuits, you can be sued for anything in the Peoples Republic of USA, people tripping over the garden hose in your yard. All this stuff comes to be ridiculous as is the assumption there is a law that isn't. Scuba shop VIP stickers are not a legal requirment.

All of this is purely hypothetical for practical purposes because scuba tanks don't explode in normal use. If there is a car accident and the tank fails as a result of the wreck and damage resulting, the VIP sticker would have nothing to do with it. I just don't see scuba tanks rocketing all over the place and mass casulties resulting. Y'all are creating laws and circumstances that don't really exist to support your mythical creations. N

 

[mike_s]

I am sorry but that is incorrect I am afraid, private vehicles not engaged in interstate commerce are not restricted. I can carry my tanks anywhere I like anytime I like.

for most cases you are correct....


but I think there is a limit somewhere on the amount of compressed gas carried before it reaches some limit that will put it under DOT restrictions. I can't remember exactly. It's been disscussed on here before and referenced to the DOT law were given. maybe it was something like 22 AL80 tanks.

but.... I doubt your average patrol officer knows that either....

 

[oxyhacker]

Bull****. Sorry, I try not to use crudities, but bull****. This has been debunked so many times. You can call the DOT, or go to the DOT hazmat website where they post letters of interpretation, and it will say over and over again that this is not so. The DOT is a conglomeration of many branches of the gov, and has many areas of jurisdiction, however their authority in many of these areas is quite limited. The DOT's authority over scuba tanks and other HP cylinders arises from their use as commercial packagings for Hazmat, not from the DOT's purview over road safety, and is handled by the PHMSA (Pipeline and Hazardous Material Safety Administration). And as far as the PHMSA is concerned, private transportation of HP cylinders is just none of their business. There's even a DOT document concerning the use of HP cylinders as fuel tanks in alternate fuel vehicles, that says that they do not have to be hydrotested as long as the fuel in them isn't being resold! Some other department of the DOT, like the Highway Safety folks could decide to ban or regulate private transport if they saw the need, but that would not be on the PHMSA's authority, because the PHMSA just doesn't have any.

Oh, and Pesky, the distinction between "intra" and "inter" state tranport was eliminated in 1997:

"49 CFR Parts 171 and 173
SUMMARY: On January 8, 1997, RSPA published a final rule which amended the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR) to expand the scope of the regulations to intrastate transportation of hazardous materials. The intended effect of the January 8, 1997 rule is to raise the level of
safety in the transportation of hazardous materials by applying a uniform system of safety regulations to all hazardous materials transported in commerce throughout the United States."
The change is also reflected in many recent letters of interpretation, etc, as in :
"As specified in § 171.1, the HMR govern the transportation of hazardous materials in intrastate, interstate and foreign commerce."

You can move the tanks anywhere in your back yard, but LEGALLY (LITERALLY) can't hit a public road. The same logic applies to your car. You can drive your car in your back yard without a registration, but NOT on the public road. That is, the federal doesn't care if you are exploded with the tank in your back yard or not, just NOT in the public property.

 

[PhilEllis]

Nemrod, I'll just slowly step out of this conversation and leave it to others. I obviously don't know what I am talking about.

Phil Ellis

 

[Bowtie22]

I was originally concerned more about the civil aspect of the VIP's and the inspectors and I think that I recieved enough info to make my decisions on that matter, but since we are all talking DOT regs and such I will add a few things as far as DOT codes are concerned.

You are right that most police officers don't know the regs but one step further (at least in Maryland) a police officer cannot enforce DOT regulations unless he has been trained and certified under DOT as an Inspector. Not only that but I am a police officer and even when I was a brand new rookie on patrol I could have cared less that someone transports, uses or fills their tanks anywhere. I personally have a lot better things to do then to even look up some ridiculous law.

On the other side I just called up one of my buddies that is a DOT inspector and he is one of my fellow police officers (his assignment is to my departments Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit) this is the answer that I have gotten. He is tracking down the "CORRECT" answer and he will give it to me by Monday. He is calling some guy that is supposedly the #2 man in regulations from DOT.

As a short answer that he gave me to help with this subject that we have gotten on is:
He said anyone can transport any cylinder SCUBA or an industrial cylinder for personal use in your personal vehicle anywhere you want as long as it is not being used for commercial purposes and that the hydro stamp doesn't mean anything for an individual.

I asked him about a dive shop pulling their dive shop trailer using the dive shops vehicle to the local quarry carrying 60 SCUBA tanks all out of Hydros. He said that unless the vehicle is over 10,001lbs (truck, trailer and load combined" that it does not matter and it does not classify as a "commercial vehicle" under DOT regulations.

He entertained the possibility that a LDS vehicle and trailer was over the combined total of 10,001lbs. He said that it will then fall under DOT regulations and restrictions. He said that the driver would have to possess a commercial drivers license, he said that all of the contents of the trailer would then be subject to inspection and that if the SCUBA cylinders were over a certain weight (he is researching the exact weight for transporting non combustible gas cylinders) that then the trailer would have to be placarded and all of the cylinders would be required to have a current Hydro stamp on each of them. He did say that if it was under that weight that the tanks would still need a current Hydro stamp on them ONLY BECAUSE THE VEHICLE AND TRAILER COMBO WAS OVER THE 10,001LBS AND COMMERCIAL VEHICLE LAWS APPLIED.

He is still trying to get the exact information to end this debate; hopefully I was able to help clarify some of this even though the original post was pertaining to VIP's and civil liabilities.

Sorry that this post turned into a novel.

 

[Nemrod]

Nemrod, I'll just slowly step out of this conversation and leave it to others. I obviously don't know what I am talking about.

Phil Ellis

Then PM or post the references of the required VIP laws and the DOT and interstate regulations and CFRs that require a private individual to have a VIP on their tank before they can trasport it in their personal vehicle.

If I quoted you or took you out of context I apologise. See Oxyhackers post, Captains posts in addition. I mean, it is possible you are wrong or as well that I am misunderstanding. I think I am going with Oxyhacker on this because I have read the regulations and I am not finding the laws you guys seem to refer to.

Why create problem that don't exist, nobody is going to sure you because you don't have a VIP because your scuba tank is not going to explode.

Now, is it wise to have your tanks inspected and hydro, certainly is, thing is though that many individuals can do a better job than the tongue ring lazy clerk at the LDS. Putting the LDS VIP sticker on your tank does not transfer the liability to them because that VIP is only good for the moment the tank is inspected, if your drop it on the way across the parking lot to your car, it means nothing, it doesn't anways. You own the tank, it is your responsibility as for anything to prevent injury to innocents and a silly paper sticker does not change that. With or without the VIP sticker, the fingers will be pointing at you.

N