Legal & other issues from SG Mishap

[String]

The way it works here is any death is treated as a crime scene until proven otherwise. That fact alone means you cant waive your right to be recovered.

 

[Knight]

Sometimes recovery can result in other deaths, I come from Netherland and know of few caves were they just had to leave a body in there for weeks till they could get the right people in there and sometimes you can't find the body, most of the time it happens with unexperienced divers who enter high level caves and do not know till they get in there that they are in big trouble.

With this accident I just really want to know if these divers had ropes to trail them back out, it would make sense for these cert. divers to do that right? well I know plenty of divers who don't do this they are so cocky or think so experienced they don't need em and sometimes I wonder how they are still alive. If you don't have ropes to trail your way back out then everyone is depending on the most skilled diver to get them back out and sometimes you have dis-agreements UW and one diver says "no we came from this way we must go out from here" while the other says "nope this is the way we came we need to go this way" and they will spend minutes trying to figure out what to do and who is right or not and then by the time they know it booom there lost, confused panic sets in, etc etc etc. I hope we get more details soon as what they find.

Always descending,
C.H.

 

[Boatlawyer]

Considering the only facts are limited to

- People died while diving a wreck (names were released in the Sun Sentinel today)

- They were deep inside the wreck - deeper inside than anyone has reportedly gone.

That's apparently it. What else can people do now but speculate?

-- BTW - everyone should stop speculating about whether or not to recover the bodies. They already did, and the bodies are at the coast guard station in Islamorada.

Howard-

The speculation was not really about whether THESE divers should be rescued, it is clear they were going to be. The issue was a deeper ethical question about whether divers, in making their decision to dive should be required to address the issue of whether OTHER people should have to risk their lives rescuing them or recovering their remains.

THAT speculation was in response to the "I can dive wherever the heck I want and nobody should stop me" contingent that always weighs in on these accident threads.

And after thinking about it, and human nature being what it is, I doubt it would help to add such a statement to waivers. If people aren't going to be super cautious about their own safety, they are probably even less likely to be mindful of the safety of those who come after them.

 

[Boatlawyer]

The risk-taker's expectation of rescue is certainly self-centered and inconsiderate, and causing a rescue may be irresponsible, but I don't think it victimizes the rescuers.

I'm not sure where your thoughts are on this, whether you were just being somewhat rhetorical.

As far as "victimization" of the rescuers, no, that's a stretch, since they signed on for the duty and they accepted the risks.

I get queasy when these ethical discussions begin to reach their tentacles into our many impacts on others or society. I worry that someone will rip that chunk of fat-marbled steak off my fork because I am driving up everyone's healthcare costs.

Thankfully, most people are still truly tolerant of others' activities, and are willing to tolerate some negative impact, just for the sake of freedom; to live and let live.

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts, since, as a lawyer, you deal with ethical issues all the time.

Dave C

Dave, yes, of course I am being rhetorical. I never suggested that THESE divers be abandoned, only raised the question of whether divers in general should have to address the issue of their rescue and/or recovery in a waiver, or alternatively, perhaps, to be charged or insured for the costs of such efforts.

And the victimization I referred to was of the lost divers. Imagine the uproar on behalf of the lost divers, if the authorities just said, "Well, they were responsible for their own safety and something happened, not our job to go after them." I suggest it would be similar to the outrage expressed here and the mere thought of a diver having to address the risk he or she puts others in when making their decisions.

Thanks for recognizing, by the way, that lawyers struggle with these types of ethical issues, when they're not busy chasing ambulances and getting million dollar verdicts for spilt coffee, that is.

And like all lawyers, we look to analagous situations to sort out new ethical dilemmas. I borrowed the "Do not Rescue or Recover" idea from health care directives.

I'm not sure when, but I am pretty sure this issue will be raised as adventure junkies take greater risks. Remember you heard it here first!

 

[dave4868]

Dave, yes, of course I am being rhetorical. I never suggested that THESE divers be abandoned, only raised the question of whether divers in general should have to address the issue of their rescue and/or recovery in a waiver, or alternatively, perhaps, to be charged or insured for the costs of such efforts.

And the victimization I referred to was of the lost divers. Imagine the uproar on behalf of the lost divers, if the authorities just said, "Well, they were responsible for their own safety and something happened, not our job to go after them." I suggest it would be similar to the outrage expressed here and the mere thought of a diver having to address the risk he or she puts others in when making their decisions.

Thanks for recognizing, by the way, that lawyers struggle with these types of ethical issues, when they're not busy chasing ambulances and getting million dollar verdicts for spilt coffee, that is.

And like all lawyers, we look to analagous situations to sort out new ethical dilemmas. I borrowed the "Do not Rescue or Recover" idea from health care directives.

I'm not sure when, but I am pretty sure this issue will be raised as adventure junkies take greater risks. Remember you heard it here first!

I understand now.

As far as your main point, using a "Do not Rescue or Recover" waiver wouldn't really be necessary, as the release in this case spells out that the charter op has not represented themselves as able to provide adequate rescue for the stricken diver.

http://www.scuba-do.com/forms/divingrelease.pdf

That will probably suffice, at least until an injury lawyer gets it in front of a "blank slate" jury, perhaps.

That's where the real problem lies, I think.

Dave C

 

[H2Andy]

As far as your main point, using a "Do not Rescue or Recover" waiver wouldn't really be necessary, as the release in this case spells out that the charter op has not represented themselves as able to provide adequate rescue for the stricken diver.

she means a waiver as to the civil authorities (i.e. Sheriff's Office Recovery Team), so they don't try and rescue or recover your body

That will probably suffice, at least until an injury lawyer gets it in front of a "blank slate" jury, perhaps.

That's where the real problem lies, I think.

don't do anything negligent and have legal insurance as a backup, and you should be covered

i can't imagine anybody in the diving business who doesn't have insurance by now

 

[dumpsterDiver]

So the operator put them in with stage tanks and no reels....... I'm glad I wasn't divemaster on that trip. What a terrible tragedy.

 

[H2Andy]

So the operator put them in with stage tanks and no reels.......

the operator is just a bus driver...

those divers were in command of their dive. they're the ones responsible for what happened, not anyone else

 

[dave4868]

she means a waiver as to the civil authorities (i.e. Sheriff's Office Recovery Team), so they don't try and rescue or recover your body

You're right, I was locked into thinking about the most risky and emergent part, the rescue.

don't do anything negligent and have legal insurance as a backup, and you should be covered

i can't imagine anybody in the diving business who doesn't have insurance by now

I'm anticipating that insurance coverage costs will become exorbitant because of insane damage awards, and that may drive dive charters out of the business, like it has certain medical specialists.

Dave C

 

[H2Andy]

I'm anticipating that insurance coverage costs will become exorbitant because of insane damage awards, and that may drive dive charters out of the business, like it has certain medical specialists.

i am way too tired to go into why that is the market at work, and why we're better off with more expensive but also higher quality services

price is just information; you should be able to tell something about what you are getting by the price you pay