Legal & other issues from SG Mishap

[Missdirected]

I will just say, "welcome to the board, boatlawyer". Hope you enjoy and continue to contribute Any postings on trial references are much appreciated and adds a new facet here on the board


PS...PM sent to Missdirected to settle down on the damn medallion issue!!!...j/k

She has been here for a while! Oh and I paid for my medallion. Quite happily I might add, considering what I was told it was for. The scary thing, as with what happens with many charities, is if no one is watching the money, and the largest portion is going where it was not intended. Joe Blow gets 80% and the "charity" gets 20 (if that). Not good. Now we don't know that is the case here at all. Should be easy enough to find out though.

As for me, I am only trying to learn. No need to be in first I enjoy the "arguments" put forth. Gives one an idea as to what peeps may try in the real world. Perhaps ideas on how to circumvent the things we as divers don't want to see happen in our sport.

 

[J.R.]

can I sneeze out the words "attractive nuisance" as just two words not associated with eachother or legal matters?

Heck... I can use it in a sentence...

"The '10' I saw on the beach yesterday, when my beloved wife of 35 years and to whom I am thoroughly and completely devoted to but was 2000 miles away at a business meeting at the time... sure was an attractive nuisance."

... ok... didn't say it would be a GOOD sentence...

 

[Technology_Shark]

Most all of the dive ops tell you, "DO NOT PENETRATE THIS WRECK" - what else can they do? Have people go and baby sit - certified divers on a dive?!?! - I certainly don't want a sitter on a dive with me.

This is true but.....(I will use Ginnie Springs as an example)
If you go to Ginnie and can not prove you are qualified for cave or cavern diving, then you are not allowed to enter the water carrying tools of that trade.

From what I have read (and please mind that because all facts are unknown about this incident I am not pointing a finger at the Scuba-Do or it's crew) The diveboat operator allowed these men to step off the boat carrying a reel with a single AL80 strapped to their back. The reel is a blatant statement which says "I'm going to penetrate this wreck against advice" and when that is combined with these depths, the sheer size of this ship and a single AL80 cylinder strapped to ones back, it's a sure recipe for disaster.

Had the boat had a policy that stated "no wreck penetration gear allowed without prior approval (upon which approval was given by verifying the divers experience and total package of proper equipment including doubles). The lack of a reel may have deterred these divers to a point where they might still be alive.

If I don't allow hunting on my property, I don't let you wander around my yard with a gun. Dive boats can arrange special trips to accomodate tech divers where they can ensure the proper equipment and experience is being used to minimize the risk. They don't need to allow penetration gear to be taken on a non-penetration dive. I don;t want a Nanny but unfortunately, some people do have to be saved from their own stupidity. If you were a dive boat operator moored above a marine sanctuary, would you allow a diver to get off the boat with a speargun?

 

[daniel f aleman]

This case won't go to trial for the same reason you've never lost a jury trial. The defense will settle.

Burn!

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Point: the state sinks a ship with holes in it, the state knows that people will go in those holes, and the state knows that some people will die in places where those holes go.

 

[Thalassamania]

Boatlawyer[/B]] This case won't go to trial for the same reason you've never lost a jury trial. The defense will settle.

Concur.

 

[ctnitroxdiver2006]

This is true but.....(I will use Ginnie Springs as an example)
If you go to Ginnie and can not prove you are qualified for cave or cavern diving, then you are not allowed to enter the water carrying tools of that trade.

From what I have read (and please mind that because all facts are unknown about this incident I am not pointing a finger at the Scuba-Do or it's crew) The diveboat operator allowed these men to step off the boat carrying a reel with a single AL80 strapped to their back. The reel is a blatant statement which says "I'm going to penetrate this wreck against advice" and when that is combined with these depths, the sheer size of this ship and a single AL80 cylinder strapped to ones back, it's a sure recipe for disaster.

Had the boat had a policy that stated "no wreck penetration gear allowed without prior approval (upon which approval was given by verifying the divers experience and total package of proper equipment including doubles). The lack of a reel may have deterred these divers to a point where they might still be alive.

If I don't allow hunting on my property, I don't let you wander around my yard with a gun. Dive boats can arrange special trips to accomodate tech divers where they can ensure the proper equipment and experience is being used to minimize the risk. They don't need to allow penetration gear to be taken on a non-penetration dive. I don;t want a Nanny but unfortunately, some people do have to be saved from their own stupidity. If you were a dive boat operator moored above a marine sanctuary, would you allow a diver to get off the boat with a speargun?

Just a point of fact.. Carrying a dive reel is NOT a blatant statement "I am going to penetrate this wreck against advise". that to me is an uninformed response on the use of dive reels... I carry a reel, a spool and 2 bags on every deep dive and most reef dives.why? a reel can be used with a lift bag to carry something to the surface or as I use it ...to shoot the bag from the bottom or wherever I am in the water column to use as an assent line in a drift dive, in an emergency or for continuing training. A nice colored bag is great for the boat to see if you are pulled off a wreck in a current and can't come up on a designated line.They can see the bag surface and keep track of where you are drifting.The reel can also be used to shoot a bag to the surface with a slate attached in case of emergency to notify the surface team of a problem ( as long as they are aware of your dive plan). I wont dive with a dive operation that will take my personal safety gear away.. whats next...no pony bottles?

 

[Thalassamania]

Just a point of fact.. Carrying a dive reel is NOT a blatant statement "I am going to penetrate this wreck against advise". that to me is an uninformed response on the use of dive reels... I carry a reel, a spool and 2 bags on every deep dive and most reef dives.why? a reel can be used with a lift bag to carry something to the surface or as I use it ...to shoot the bag from the bottom or wherever I am in the water column to use as an assent line in a drift dive, in an emergency or for continuing training. A nice colored bag is great for the boat to see if you are pulled off a wreck in a current and can't come up on a designated line.They can see the bag surface and keep track of where you are drifting.The reel can also be used to shoot a bag to the surface with a slate attached in case of emergency to notify the surface team of a problem ( as long as they are aware of your dive plan). I wont dive with a dive operation that will take my personal safety gear away.. whats next...no pony bottles?

What about a bag full of strobes and and a passel of stage bottles? Is that not a clear statement?

 

[ctnitroxdiver2006]

now THAT is more of a clear statement of intent!

 

[CBulla]

well, I tried to find an annual report or accounting for the UKARC online, but haven't been able to find a mention.

The medallions are not as big a deal to me as the concern that deadships and other sea junk are being touted as marine saving artificial reefs, when it's just cheaper for the owners to get a marine society to buy into it than to dispose of the stuff.

I found this on the Chamber of Commerce website:

The Key Largo Chamber of Commerce, under the auspices of the Upper Keys Artificial Reef Foundation, reduces the debt on the sinking of the Spiegel Grove by giving annual dive medallions for a $10 donation, a gorgeous bronze medallion for a $250 donation.
Those who receive the lifetime medallion will have their name (or the name of their choice) inscribed on a bronze plaque that is affixed to the Spiegel Grove. Only 1,000 lifetime medallions will be given away; the foundation is in the process of filling the final plaque.

Donation, meaning that I don't have to buy it but am being told its mandatory by dive operators.

3. Commercial dive operators support the Shipwreck Medallion Program by encouraging their customers to wear on their buoyancy compensators one of 2 levels of Shipwreck Medallion sponsorship

Encouraging, not requiring, a donation to dive on the SG. Then again, if I dive off my own vessel, nobody seems to care.

Upper Keys Artificial Reef Foundation - according to www.sunbiz.org doesn't seem to exist. As a foundation it should be a 501c3 and incorporated, so it should be listed - I could be wrong and way off base here.. I'm alright with being wrong.

 

[CBulla]

What about a bag full of strobes and and a passel of stage bottles? Is that not a clear statement?

they were decorating the vessel for a Christmas post card they were working on for this years mailing.. the water was just the right temp and clarity to give the strobes 'flare'.

I agree - more than clear to me that they were up to more than the average diver