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friscuba:
Leisure Pro, on the other hand, sells at a low enough price that it is at or near enough to wholesale that no ordinary store could afford to stock the product at that price and stay in business. It also indicates that the merchandise was obtained by non traditional means not available to the average mom and pop shop, nor allowed by many suppliers.

That's my biggest gripe, when one business (which isn't even a full service business) can obtain product through non-traditional means not available to legitimate dealers and sell at or near the legitimate dealers' cost and gain such a large share that it affects the ability of Local Shops to stay in business... that's very unfortunate.

I am not particularly a fan of LeisurePro and it is not my intension to defend them. But The problem with Scubapro and other brands that demand minimum prices is not LP but the US distributor that is mandating this. They are who is hurting the low volume shops that have a hard time benefitting from large volume wholesale buys.

But even those shops could compete with LP and abide by dealer agreements. They can market packages and/or throw in service and airfill perks that can reduce the cost difference to a point where it is no longer important while still maintaining Mfgr warrenties and the related free parts programs. It would also adds customers to their customer base rather than to LPs. But they are going to have to give up some profit on the initial sale to do this.

Weak shops that can not adapt are probably going under. That will leave more market foer the surviving shops. Good shops will do OK. Some shops will continue to survive while they hide behind the deceptions they often try to perpetuate. But new scuba shoppers have ever increasing sources of information from the internet and the number who can be fooled or coersed into paying uncompetativly high price is dwindling.
 
awap:
I am not particularly a fan of LeisurePro and it is not my intension to defend them. But The problem with Scubapro and other brands that demand minimum prices is not LP but the US distributor that is mandating this. They are who is hurting the low volume shops that have a hard time benefitting from large volume wholesale buys.

But even those shops could compete with LP and abide by dealer agreements. They can market packages and/or throw in service and airfill perks that can reduce the cost difference to a point where it is no longer important while still maintaining Mfgr warrenties and the related free parts programs. It would also adds customers to their customer base rather than to LPs. But they are going to have to give up some profit on the initial sale to do this.

Weak shops that can not adapt are probably going under. That will leave more market foer the surviving shops. Good shops will do OK. Some shops will continue to survive while they hide behind the deceptions they often try to perpetuate. But new scuba shoppers have ever increasing sources of information from the internet and the number who can be fooled or coersed into paying uncompetativly high price is dwindling.

Weak shops will become even weaker if they are expected to make no money off high ticket items. The fewer shops there are, the worse off many of us as hobbyists will be.
Not every location in this country has 5-6 dive shops to choose from, in the vast majority of the country any dive shop going under will affect a lot of people, in many areas everyone living there could lose thier only local source for dive services.

To have a dive shop, you generally need a compressor, rental gear availble and retail gear on the sales floor. LP, from reports of those who have been there, has little to none of these. It would be extrememly easy for even a small dive shop to have 60-100K invested just to open it's doors. Once they open the doors, they have rent (retail space rent are higher than awrehouse, also retail requires more floorspace for display and traffic purposes), utilities, marketing expenses, staff to pay, the orginal debt to service and somehow need to make enough to pay their families. Small businesses have got to charge a markup or they will die.

In order to sell gear, you pretty much have to stock it. Some retailers ocasionally get some special order business, but in general, to sell 1 Zeagle Ranger, you need to stock all 4 sizes as you never know what size the person walking in the door will be. That's roughly 1600 hundred bucks wholesale sitting on the sales floor (already paid for out of the shop owners wallet) to get a sale for an item that LP charges only $449 for. Nobody can guarantee the sale of that BCD will also bring in other money in the form of services or sales, so it has to have a price that on it's own justifies even stocking it. Most dealers I've talked with, shopped at or worked for DO offer packages and other perks that can bring down the price to compare with say Scubatoys or Diversdirect, but LP is in a league of it's own.

Manufacturers dropping their minimum price agreements would not help the vast majority of small shops, and oftentimes when there are price wars, nobody in the business wins, everyone actually makes less. I've seen a small operator try going the discount route. He messed up the sales for everyone else in town, got real busy and took up a bigger share of the market, his sales gross went way up, but his business partners were complaining because they were working twice as hard and making less money, because their margins were so low, than when they played it straight retail. This operator was not service oriented at all, no charters, training, airfills, gear repair, etc ... and made it tougher on the others who actually serviced their customers.

Industries can underprice themselves to the point where there are few or no healthy businesses left. It would be sad to see that happen to this hobby.

later,
 
friscuba:
In the overall picture of the industry, I doubt E-bay individuals are all that big of a threat to the Local Shops. I don't really know enough about Ebay sellers to comment, but I do know for a fact that LP causes a bunch of headaches for legitimate retailers. Taking a look back to the thread, when you look at people griping the loudest about being ripped off by their LDS and actually listing prices, guess where the vast majority of the prices listed came from - LP.

That's my biggest gripe, when one business (which isn't even a full service business) can obtain product through non-traditional means not available to legitimate dealers and sell at or near the legitimate dealers' cost and gain such a large share that it affects the ability of Local Shops to stay in business... that's very unfortunate.


later,

I personally posted some price comparisons. The numbers I quoted were based on prices publised by a LDS vs. Scubatoys. In my mind, the comparison was fair in that scubatoys is an authorized dealer, provide after sale service, etc. For that reason, it is my expectation that a LDS should be able to come close to scubatoys when it comes to prices. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Not by a longshot. If my LDS was only 10% more than what scubatoys charged then they would win my business every time.
 
friscuba:
The fewer shops there are, the worse off many of us as hobbyists will be.

In order to sell gear, you pretty much have to stock it.

Manufacturers dropping their minimum price agreements would not help the vast majority of small shops,serviced their customers.

Industries can underprice themselves to the point where there are few or no healthy businesses left. It would be sad to see that happen to this hobby.

later,

At one time Austin, TX (not exactly a diving meca) had more LDSs than Walmarts. Most of the weaker one have closed and the remainder are better off.

I live a good ways from Austin. 2 LDS (used to have 5) are doing OK but don't carry much stock. Many high $$ retail sales involve order and wait. In many cases, it would be cheaper and faster to call scubatoys, but they seem to be doing OK.

Minimum price agreement is only part of the problem. As long as the shop also carries a quality line with no such agreement, they can at least offer the customer some alternatives. Wholesale discounts up to 30% are the real killer. That is what allows LeisurePro to offer gear at not much more than the small LDS can get it for. US distributor is in full control of that one.

There are too many divers for diving to go away any time soon. But the retail side will have to change. LDSs will have to learn to operate like a business rather than a hobby. They may have to change their business model. Not many are going to survive primarily on retail sales. And some need to quit crying and lying to their customers. And if they can't meet their customers needs, then get out of the way so good shops can have a better shop at it.
 
friscuba:
I don't quite get how your changing cars reference compares to a specific number of dives (Island Diver used a baseline of 100). He didn't say "change gear often", he said "100 dives", not "every 100 dives". The rest of my immediate dive buddies, all with hundreds to thousands of dives, buy retail, but usually take the time to ask for a deal and usually get it. ,




Yes, you don’t get what I meant. The shoppers who are buying the gear from the internet source don’t need to be new diver under 100 dives. In other words, it is not necessary to assume that 1000 log divers don’t replace their whole gear from the internet source. So, when the experience driver buys the new car, he doesn’t have to be considered as a new driver. Another good example is “Check out the thedecostop”. You can see how many tech divers shop through internet. They are under 100 dives?





friscuba:
I don't think Island Dog was all that far off in his observations. I notice on your personal profile that you are a DM candidate, perhaps as you continue on with diving, if you ever get into a position to be familiar with the business end you may see things differently. It would be curious to see exactly how many dives some of the most vocal on both sides actually have. Pushing 2000 myself and have never picked up scuba gear online. I have picked up photographey gear online because of complete unavailability locally.




Yes, I am working on my DM. But, after getting into this industry, it is more frustrated because they only blame the customers. Yes, I admit that it is very difficult to run the small business. But, what other business is a darn easy to operate? What other jobs aren’t competitive? How about a restaurant, coffee shop, or any other retail store? It is a competitive world to survive. Many LDS need to be “get real.”
 
friscuba:
I don't think Island Dog was all that far off in his observations. I notice on your personal profile that you are a DM candidate, perhaps as you continue on with diving, if you ever get into a position to be familiar with the business end you may see things differently. It would be curious to see exactly how many dives some of the most vocal on both sides actually have. Pushing 2000 myself and have never picked up scuba gear online. I have picked up photographey gear online because of complete unavailability locally.

I have been diving for 15 years and recall with VIVID memory the pains of buying gear in the pre-internet era. No selection and the dude behind the counter had nothing but dollar signs in his eyes. 14 years later, I just bought 2 complete sets of gear for my wife and I all from the internet. I am now averaging about $1500 a year in diving related items all bought off the internet. Do I miss going to the LDS? You mean going in and being told that my favorite brand of wetsuit (which of course they don't carry) sucks and they won't be there when it fails? Or how about the old "you really need different fins for Belize since you will be diving in a current...those Tusa Zoom Split fins won't hold up"? Really? How many dives do you have with Tusa's? 0? That's what I thought.

Most LDS owners I have met are cousins to used car salesman.
 
Adobo:
To give an example of how silly some of the business practices are, check out these price comparisons between scubatoys and one of the LDS in the area:

Oceanic zeta cdx5
LDS price: $549
Scubatoys: $359

I mean, come on... $190 more? Would I pay $50 more for the same reg, sure. But $190 leads me to believe that scubatoys is just plain smarter in managing their expenses and buying agreements.

I don't suggest this in a mean-spirited way at all but I suspect that what you believe is far from reality. I suppose that it really doesn't matter...if you're in the market for a Zeta, 190 bucks is 190 bucks. But I think that there is a reason for the huge price difference that has nada to do with smarts or buying agreements.


Adobo:
I personally posted some price comparisons. The numbers I quoted were based on prices publised by a LDS vs. Scubatoys. In my mind, the comparison was fair in that scubatoys is an authorized dealer, provide after sale service, etc. For that reason, it is my expectation that a LDS should be able to come close to scubatoys when it comes to prices. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Not by a longshot. If my LDS was only 10% more than what scubatoys charged then they would win my business every time.

That may be your expectation but is is probably an unreasonable one.

I'm not saying don't buy from ST. But I don't think that it is reasonable to expect your LDS to be able to match the prices on some of the items that ST offers.
 
I'm not saying don't buy from ST. But I don't think that it is reasonable to expect your LDS to be able to match the prices on some of the items that ST offers.[/QUOTE]

Why?
 
mdb:

Surely, as president of Apollo, you know the reasons...probably better than I.

And...

Why SHOULD every LDS price match on every item that ST offers? All I can ask of any LDS is for them to give me the best deal that they can...the same as what I would ask of ST.
 
Stephen Ash:
Why SHOULD every LDS price match on every item that ST offers? All I can ask of any LDS is for them to give me the best deal that they can...the same as what I would ask of ST.

That's OK so long as they understand and accept the fact that when there best deal is not good enough my $$$ may be going elsewhere in those cases.
 

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