LDS or Internet

[GreenDiverDown]

That's OK so long as they understand and accept the fact that when there best deal is not good enough my $$$ may be going elsewhere in those cases.

I think that is reasonable, as is your choice of the word,"may".

 

[Adobo]

Surely, as president of Apollo, you know the reasons...probably better than I.

And...

Why SHOULD every LDS price match on every item that ST offers? All I can ask of any LDS is for them to give me the best deal that they can...the same as what I would ask of ST.

Your kidding right? You mean to say that it is acceptable for a LDS to ask the consumer for more than a 10% premium over what a legitimate competitor charges for the exact same product?

Normally, I like to reserve charity for the under-priveledged. And generally, I don't put retailers in that category.

 

[Phil@1877SCUBAUSA.COM]

Phil

I just don't understand. How do you reconcile the second sentence quoted above with your final statement.

Are you saying that if your customer doesn't need everything you have to offer that you are not interested in them?

Do you believe that your customers are more dependent on you and your LDS than you are on them?

Nevermind Phil. After visiting your web site, I understand now. You don't really object to internet sales. You, in fact, have incorperated them into your LDS as many successful shops have done. Apparently your objection is targeted at Leisurepro rather than internet in general. But it does seem to me that LDSs need to accept LP as an established part of scuba retail and deal with it.

Think about this;
Unless you know all there is to know about dive equipment. You will be trusting life sustaining decisions to people who do not know any better. That decision is totally up to the buyer. You can walk into a brick and mortar dive shop with real divers in a real dive shop and get the answers you deserve from real divers. The choice to buy is still yours. LP is NOT by any stretch of the imagination a real dive shop, never-mind the fact that they do not have any divers on staff. If you think they do, call and ask some hard questions. Get the facts, be a tough consumer and only buy when you are satisfied. I want to dive with the best equipped and best educated divers possible. There are two very good reasons for this.
1. if I fail the equipment or educational needs of my fellow divers, it will be mine or there buddies responsibilities to go to there aid if any difficulty should arise because of it.
2. I am not egotistical enough to believe I will never need someone to come to my aid. If and when that time comes. I sure hope there will be well equipped and well educated divers to come to my aid. Not some ill-equipped or poorly educated ones.

If you come into, email or call my shop, you will see the difference. There are other authorized dealers that can provide the services we do. Seek us out, the knowledge we have to share is like the commercial says. "Priceless". I don't expect everyone to buy from me, just buy smart.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Your kidding right?

Nope!

You mean to say that it is acceptable for a LDS to ask the consumer for more than a 10% premium over what a legitimate competitor charges for the exact same product?

Of course it is. Where do you get the 10% thing anyways? Is that just a number that YOU find reasonable?


What I personally find unacceptable is misleading customers, lying to customers, selling the unwitting things they don't need...basically not serving the customer with the customer's best interest in mind.

Retailers do not necessarily share the same abilities to price various items. That should be obvious.

Why would anyone dream that a small mom and pop dive shop in Homer, Alaska could and should sell Zetas for 359 dollars? How many Zetas do you think they sell a month? How many more would they sell in Homer even if they reduced their price? There’s not much profit selling things at cost and 359 dollars is pretty much what mom and pop would have to send to Oceanic. Hmm…let’s add your 10% to that to make it "acceptable". I’m pretty darn sure that if they sell their Zetas for 395 dollars they’ll be using caribou antlers to keep warm.

Compare this to a giant store in Texas like ST. Just go to their web cam and check out the square footage and stock. I guarantee you that place has a greater ability to sell some items at killer prices than that shop in Homer or, for that matter, our pretty good size store here in Phoenix.

This doesn't mean one place is better than another or that one place is owned by Silas Marner and the other by a saint. It just means some places can sell items for less than other places…even though they both are “legitimate”.

Whom you buy from is up to you.


Oh, BTW...

A sincere welcome to the board!

 

[friscuba]

At one time Austin, TX (not exactly a diving meca) had more LDSs than Walmarts. Most of the weaker one have closed and the remainder are better off.

I live a good ways from Austin. 2 LDS (used to have 5) are doing OK but don't carry much stock. Many high $$ retail sales involve order and wait. In many cases, it would be cheaper and faster to call scubatoys, but they seem to be doing OK.

Minimum price agreement is only part of the problem. As long as the shop also carries a quality line with no such agreement, they can at least offer the customer some alternatives. Wholesale discounts up to 30% are the real killer. That is what allows LeisurePro to offer gear at not much more than the small LDS can get it for. US distributor is in full control of that one.

There are too many divers for diving to go away any time soon. But the retail side will have to change. LDSs will have to learn to operate like a business rather than a hobby. They may have to change their business model. Not many are going to survive primarily on retail sales. And some need to quit crying and lying to their customers. And if they can't meet their customers needs, then get out of the way so good shops can have a better shop at it.

Actually Austin IS a dive mecca compared to much of the country. I lived in a town of 50K in Oregon that went from 3 dive shops to ZERO, in part because of internet competion. A larger town miles down the road went down to 1. That left basically one shop servicing a rather large area. They were a good shop, but the selection in the area sure went down.

Dive shops should not lie and cry,lying is definitely wrong, but I can't blame them for worrying although it woud be best to keep their worries to themselves.

later,

Steve

 

[Adobo]

Nope!



Of course it is. Where do you get the 10% thing anyways? Is that just a number that YOU find reasonable?


What I personally find unacceptable is misleading customers, lying to customers, selling the unwitting things they don't need...basically not serving the customer with the customer's best interest in mind.

Retailers do not necessarily share the same abilities to price various items. That should be obvious.

Why would anyone dream that a small mom and pop dive shop in Homer, Alaska could and should sell Zetas for 349 dollars? How many Zetas do you think they sell a month? How many more would they sell in Homer even if they reduced their price? There’s not much profit selling things at cost and 349 dollars is pretty much what mom and pop would have to send to Oceanic. Hmm…let’s add your 10% to that to make it "acceptable". I’m pretty darn sure that if they sell their Zetas for 384 dollars they’ll be using caribou antlers to keep warm.

Compare this to a giant store in Texas like ST. Just go to their web cam and check out the square footage and stock. I guarantee you that place has a greater ability to sell some items at killer prices than that shop in Homer or, for that matter, our pretty good size store here in Phoenix.

This doesn't mean one place is better than another or that one place is owned by Silas Marner and the other by a saint. It just means some places can sell items for less than other places…even though they both are “legitimate”.

Whom you buy from is up to you.


Oh, BTW...

A sincere welcome to the board!

Homer, Alaska? Who is talking about Homer, Alaska? I live in California. And the prices I posted come from a company that advertises itself as a scuba super store. It is a superstore that stocks Mares, Apeks, Zeagle and Oceanic regs. If they are not savy enough to make arrangements with their suppliers that positions them in a manner where they could compete with scuba toys, is that the consumers fault?

You don't like 10%? Then what is the right premium to pay for an LDS's inability to negotiate competitive wholesale prices? Should I pay 50% more because it is the best the LDS can do? How about twice the money? At what point do those of us who are not doctors (and that would make up the majority of the diver community) say, I really am giving up too much just to support this dive shop.

Nobody is saying anything about one retailer being better than another. Nor am I claiming that an LDS is not legitimate simply because they cannot compete on prices. All I am saying is if an LDS wants their share of the business, they need to know that competition is no longer just the store down the street. It is the guy on the internet as well.

Out of curiousity, how many of you folks participating in this thread are from Homer, Alaska? Please let us know if it is possible to keep warm using caribbou antlers.

 

[friscuba]

Yes, you don’t get what I meant. The shoppers who are buying the gear from the internet source don’t need to be new diver under 100 dives. In other words, it is not necessary to assume that 1000 log divers don’t replace their whole gear from the internet source. So, when the experience driver buys the new car, he doesn’t have to be considered as a new driver. Another good example is “Check out the thedecostop”. You can see how many tech divers shop through internet. They are under 100 dives?









Yes, I am working on my DM. But, after getting into this industry, it is more frustrated because they only blame the customers. Yes, I admit that it is very difficult to run the small business. But, what other business is a darn easy to operate? What other jobs aren’t competitive? How about a restaurant, coffee shop, or any other retail store? It is a competitive world to survive. Many LDS need to be “get real.”

I was only commenting on Island Dog's comment that from what he had seen, working in the charter end of the industry, was that the majority of internet shoppers he'd met would qualify as inexperienced divers while the more experienced divers tended to shop with their preferred LDS.

I've noticed pretty much the same thing. I will concede that being on the charter end, we tend to meet people who are not worried about paying for service. Experienced charter divers may not have extreme frugality issues. I"ll admit I also do not see the true tech guys, I do meet guys who have 4-5K worth of gear and 17 - 30 dives, and the occasional tekkie who is a glorified recreational diver. I make no bones about it, I am not a trained tech diver and I don't consider myself to be "advanced" by any means, but then again, I've never had less than 1300 psi left at the end of a dive that I've lead someone in DIR equipment. I do know tech guys locally who could kick my tail in the air consumption area.

As to your last paragraph.... Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, - Sorry, I generally don't get this cocky, but this whole thread has be a bit worked up and I've had a couple of beers.

Boy have you stepped in it. (I owned a retail business -not diving- for 7 years) Overall cost of goods sold in a dive store 35%-45% .... if they are lucky and sell a lot of higher markup accessories. Most restaurants shoot for 12-15% or less for cost of goods sold. I had a friend who had a sandwich shop who wouldn't tell me his product costs, just that I was guessing way too high. I had a buddy in the coffee business- He paid 120 bucks a month in rent and spent all day selling 3 dollar coffees that cost him 11-15 cents. He said he buck twentyfive coffees cost him 4-6 cents. Other retail stores? Bought a pair of levi's lately? I had a girlfriend years ago who managed a clothing department at a Montgomery Wards who said most of their 28 buck pants cost roughly 7 bucks. That was years ago, but clothing markup is nutz. Another friend owned a 10 buck store and rarely paid over 2.85 for anything. One of my best friends owned a gift store - 300-500% markup on most everything. Furniture stores, you know the guys who are offering 40-60% off retail every several months, many are making well over keystone AFTER the discounts.

Get real. Keystone markups in a retail setting are common, and in many cases quite low when compared to many businesses. How come everyone else is afforded a profitable markup while dive shops aren't?

Later,

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Homer, Alaska? Who is talking about Homer, Alaska?

I can only go by what you post. I can't read your mind.

For that reason, it is my expectation that a LDS should be able to come close to scubatoys when it comes to prices.

Your kidding right? You mean to say that it is acceptable for a LDS to ask the consumer for more than a 10% premium over what a legitimate competitor charges for the exact same product?

It sounds like you are talking about every LDS in every town, whether it is in Monterey, Phoenix, or yes, even Homer, Alaska. If you weren't and if you meant that your comments only apply to a specific LDS in your hometown then you should have said so. From now on we will assume that is the case and that all of your complaints and suggestions only apply to YOUR local dive shop and have little bearing on the more global discussion that we all are having.

I live in California. And the prices I posted come from a company that advertises itself as a scuba super store. It is a superstore that stocks Mares, Apeks, Zeagle and Oceanic regs. If they are not savy enough to make arrangements with their suppliers that positions them in a manner where they could compete with scuba toys, is that the consumers fault?

"Savy" has little to do with the price of tea in China. It's not a simple matter of "arrangements". I suspect that the owner of your LDS, just as owners of many other shops around the country, know what they need to do to make their business grow...they just can't do some of those things..."not yet", they're thinking. They probably don't have the capital, the resources or base support to expand. They may call themselves a "scuba super store" but that's hardly the same as being one.

Just out of curiosity, how many square feet is your LDS? Tell us about their pool and fill station and their nitrox/trimix setup. How about their inventory...how many wetsuits do they have on the racks?...BCs?...Regs? Do they stock some of the super expensive specialized items? Do they have a little tide pool in the middle of their sales floor? How many employees do they have? Where are they located? Do they own their property or rent? Do they have a warehouse or enough room to store tons of stock? Do they have a huge internet store, as well?

Oh...No one, here or SB and probably not at your LDS, is blaming the customer. Well, I'm not, at least.

You don't like 10%? Then what is the right premium to pay for an LDS's inability to negotiate competitive wholesale prices?

Should I pay 50% more because it is the best the LDS can do? How about twice the money?

It has nothing to do with what I like. I didn't bring it up. I just want to be clear that this was some subjective arbitrary figure that you personally have chosen. You don't need to ask me how much you should spend. That is totally up to you. You should decide when and where and how much you spend.

And...

It's not a simple matter of the "LDS's inability to negotiate competitive wholesale prices." But assuming that it is...on some planet...can you tell us why your LDS can't negotiate competitive wholesale prices? Can you tell us just why your LDS can't translate this to prices that you find acceptable? From what you have said so far they must be ignorant and inept, though I doubt that is truely the case.

At what point do those of us who are not doctors (and that would make up the majority of the diver community) say, I really am giving up too much just to support this dive shop.

Are you taking a cheap shot at me? Feels like it. Maybe you would like to attack me on account of race, sex, or age while you're at it.

All I am saying is if an LDS wants their share of the business, they need to know that competition is no longer just the store down the street. It is the guy on the internet as well.

That makes sense...but I'm pretty sure all LDS owners are aware of the internet by now.

Out of [sic]curiousity[sic], how many of you folks participating in this thread are from Homer, Alaska? Please let us know if it is possible to keep warm using caribbou antlers.

Saw it on the Discovery Channel once.

Hey...nowhere have I said or would I say that you shouldn't buy from a place like ScubaToys. I think they're a great shop and I wouldn't hesitate buying from them under the right circumstances. Likewise, I'm not passing judgement on someone's choice to buy from wherever. I just think that you're missing the boat when it comes to understanding the market forces that shops are facing. Is this understanding important in the decision of where to buy? Probably not. Just don't have unreasonable expectations of your northern California LDS. If the OVERALL value of buying an item from them is less than an internet purchase then don't buy local.

 

[seaquest diver]

So basically, that LDS wanted to make about $3000 profit. If he matched prices he would have made about $1100 profit. He probably could have negotiated a couple hundred more with some service discounts thrown in that the internet can't compete with. Holding the line he'll make $0. What is he thinking?

All LDS store do not buy product at the same price. Industry findings, 90% of all stores do 10% of the total dive busines. Most lds stores pay much more for there product than a internet store. Price rules today. Thats why major business takes it's manufacturing overseas. Just a point I like to make

 

[Adobo]

It's not a simple matter of the "LDS's inability to negotiate competitive wholesale prices." But assuming that it is...on some planet...can you tell us why your LDS can't negotiate competitive wholesale prices? Can you tell us just why your LDS can't translate this to prices that you find acceptable? From what you have said so far they must be ignorant and inept, though I doubt that is truely the case.

Let me ask the question slightly differently. Am I really being unreasonable to ask a dive shop to have comparable prices to other shops that offer similar products? If not, then the next logical question is, does it really matter that scubatoys and scuba.com are a phone call away instead of a drive away? The point I am trying to make is that every retailer, whether it be scuba or stereo equipment, is that competition is not just the guy across the street. And while I recognize that there is a difference between a specialty shop and a mass merchant, I believe that the dive shops in my area are more like scubatoys than they are like sportmart.

Are you taking a cheap shot at me? Feels like it. Maybe you would like to attack me on account of race, sex, or age while you're at it.

That would be kind of silly as I am a kind of old, asian person (and really not that pretty to look at either). But I guess my loud mouth (so to speak) has achieved another first; I've been able to use the term "doctor" as way to insult somebody. Not to fear, I'm sure it will be while before doctors are held in the same regard as lawyers. Oops... hopefully no lawyers are reading this post.

Hey...nowhere have I said or would I say that you shouldn't buy from a place like ScubaToys. I think they're a great shop and I wouldn't hesitate buying from them under the right circumstances. Likewise, I'm not passing judgement on someone's choice to buy from wherever. I just think that you're missing the boat when it comes to understanding the market forces that shops are facing. Is this understanding important in the decision of where to buy? Probably not. Just don't have unreasonable expectations of your northern California LDS. If the OVERALL value of buying an item from them is less than an internet purchase then don't buy local.

It's not like I am in their store raising a stink. Those expectations are used to make purchasing decisions and not much more. I'd really like to give the business to the two dive shops in my community. Unfortunately, I feel like I am getting mugged everytime I walk in.

Another example from today. I was looking at computers. I look at their sticker price with the so called built in discount. Compare that to the MSRP listed in the manufacturer's catalog. Guess what, the so called discounted price is over 10% higher than the 2005 catalog's listed MSRP.

Ok, maybe it's not reasonable to expect to see prices competitive to scubatoys but could I at least expect not to pay more than MSRP?