LDS Disillusionment

[Vengro]

Well, I'm not sure where that comment came from but I'll tell you this. If you had come to my shop you would likely be able to stay off the bottom way better than I'm willing to bet you can because I tried my damdest to not let manufacturers and cheap competition force me into turning my dive school into a useless certification mill trading certifications for gear sales like 98% of the others. You wouldn't have hoses hanging all over in unsightly snag hazard loops and you'd be able to kick your feet without digging trenches trenches in the bottom. Provided you didn't have an attitude that got in the way you'd probably be a very successful diver like so many of my other former students are and you wouldn't get taken for a ride everytime you walked into a dive shop. You sure wouldn't be on here trying to figure out how this all works.

Thank you for stereotyping me. I came here because I wanted to talk with other people who were into scuba diving like I was, and to possibly learn more about the sport simply because I find it fascinating, and you're never too experienced or too old to learn anything. If you think you are, you're obviously fooling yourself.

I do have problems with bouyancy, but who doesn't when they first start diving? It comes with practice and persistance, and knowing your gear. None of my hoses were ever in the way of my swimming, and I'd like to think that I hold fairly well the basics of scuba swimming versus regular swimming without fins.

I'd like to think that I got a very good training program. I learned this when I went down to Dutch Springs in Pennyslvania for my certification dives and saw so many things going wrong in other groups that were absent in my own. But this is way beside the point.

I think several people have pointed out some very good suggestions throughout this discussion. If you see a price that's cheaper on a reputable site for a specific piece of equipment that you've been looking at, and you know your LDS stocks it, bring it up with the owner and see if they'd be willing to lower the price. Even if it's not exactly what you saw, if it's close enough, go with the shop. Also, if it's a smaller piece of equipment, like a light, previously mentioned, I don't see how buying it from off of the internet would be cheating the LDS, if you bought your regulators and BC from them instead.

In the end, though, it's all up to the consumer, and what they're willing or able to do. The degree of danger in regards to malfunctioning equipment is probably about the same when comparing shops to internet sources. There are shops out there that sell equipment that falls apart, and there are internet websites that do the same, so that's not really an argument.

I feel like I'm simply repeating myself, over and over.

 

[yknot]

I have an example to give on this issue.

I have bought all my vehicles at the same dealership for the last 10 years. I have spent well over $500,000 there. When I went on vacation to Colorado Springs, I had a short in my battery cable & it MELTED. The local Chevy dealer didn't have the wiring harness in stock & said he would have to order it. I could RENT A CAR from him until it got in & mine was fixed.
Did he "blackball" me for buying my vehicles somewhere else? NO, he didn't. But at the same time, he didn't go overboard in trying to help me out.

I called my regular dealership & explained my situation. They got on the phone & got ahold of a local mechanic to come to the hotel I was staying at & rewire the car to get it running & last me until I got back home where they replaced the harness. How much did this cost me? NOTHING. They picked up the tab. Do you think I will ever buy a vehicle somewhere else? I don't think so.

That is GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE & is what I try to offer my customers. You can't get that online.

James

You point out that the non-selling dealer didn't go out of his way to help. I suspect the same thing is true with most LDS' as well. If a warranty is one of the big things that separates online-vs-LDS purchases, why aren't those warranties a little more specific? As a LDS owner, what are you going to do for a customer that has an equipment failure when out of town? What's the difference between someone who bought a product from an authorized dealer 2000 miles away and someone who bought online if either had a problem and walked in your shop? All of the hype about warranties is just that. Service extras like a loaner piece of equipment have nothing to do with a warranty anyway.

 

[fashionablylate]

If you're going to compare and contrast two services, pick something other than car dealerships.

Actually, I can see this example as it applies to service. In recent years, I had leased a fairly expensive car. When it needed the oil changed, that was included in the original price. When I seized the turbocharger (don't ask), they gave me the exact same model as my car as a loaner -- no charge -- for a week while it was getting fixed. They knew me by name, and even years later, knew exactly who I was when I walked into the dealership.
Compare this with my recent Honda Accord lease.
Oil change included? Bwahaha!
FREE loaner in case of some malfunction? HA! I don't think so.

Needless to say, my next car will not be a Honda. I'd rather pay the premium for "red carpet" service, and if that's what I get for buying from the LDS, then I'll buy from the LDS. What can I say? I like to be pampered.
-Andrew

 

[ShakaZulu]

I'm also a internet supporter, only because of the prices. Anyway, bought a finger spool over the net. Went to my LDS for a tank fill, and checked out the reels. They had the one I wanted for $32.00, where I spend $43.00 on the net. Wow, was I surprized, what is happening?? Could the LDS owner perhaps have realized that the internet model forces him to no longer mark up the products by 50%????

 

[MikeFerrara]

You know the more of your posts I read regarding LDS's vs. Online sales it seems to me that you ran a shop...didn't make it...blamed everyone from the consumer with stupid questions... to online shops...to the guys "stealing" your time, etc... when the problem was you. Like Vengro said, "if I had gone to a shop for the first time and you were the owner, I'm not sure how much further I would have gone in diving afterwards."

Please don't take this personally as I have never met you. This is just what comes off the more of your posts I read.

Why shouldn't I take it personally. All I did was explain to you people how the industry works. I don't blame any one for the way my business turned out. I thought I'd enjoy having a dive shop until I learned how the industry really works and then I wanted no part of it. It's just a plain fact that a shop is stuck between a customer that doesn't want to pay double what he can get someplace else and a manufacturer that gives the shop little room to work.

A diver who understands this will have a much easier time so I explain it...and for free too.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Thank you for stereotyping me.

First of all you hammered me pretty good for no reason that I saw. Second I don't have to steriotype "you" because I've seen hundreds of classes and thousands of students and the way the average class is taught results in divers who don't have the basics down very well. Which...by the way relates directly to the fact that most shops run classes as a loss leader so they just can't put very much into them. When those students become instructors very quickly you them have the product of a cheap class teaching a cheap class and there is no longer any one involved who even knows the difference.

I came here because I wanted to talk with other people who were into scuba diving like I was, and to possibly learn more about the sport simply because I find it fascinating, and you're never too experienced or too old to learn anything. If you think you are, you're obviously fooling yourself.

If you were interested in learning I don't think you would have slammed me for explaining the issues facing shops and divers

I do have problems with bouyancy, but who doesn't when they first start diving? It comes with practice and persistance, and knowing your gear.

Well that's what some instructors tell you anyway. Tell me you didn't have some instructor tell you that you'd get it with practice...AFTER YOU WERE CERTIFIED! There are some instructors who get students MUCH MUCH further along with this in the pool before going to open water is even considered. It's hard to do in a loss leader class though. Shoot, in a loss leader class you can't even afford to have an instructor who know how. So...this is another area where the existing business model of the dive industry effects and maybe even hurts you no matter where you buy your equipment.

None of my hoses were ever in the way of my swimming,

When I get some time I'll see if I can dig up a link to a really streamlined rig...or maybe some one else here has one handy.

I'd like to think that I got a very good training program. I learned this when I went down to Dutch Springs in Pennyslvania for my certification dives and saw so many things going wrong in other groups that were absent in my own. But this is way beside the point.

How much time did you spend in the pool?
Time in class?
Total amount of bottom time for your open water check-outs?

No need to answer these questions here because its off topic and there are a couple dozen more I could ask but these three are an indicators. If you are interested in comparing your class to some others to see how it really stacked up shoot me a PM or start another thread.

I think several people have pointed out some very good suggestions throughout this discussion. If you see a price that's cheaper on a reputable site for a specific piece of equipment that you've been looking at, and you know your LDS stocks it, bring it up with the owner and see if they'd be willing to lower the price. Even if it's not exactly what you saw, if it's close enough, go with the shop. Also, if it's a smaller piece of equipment, like a light, previously mentioned, I don't see how buying it from off of the internet would be cheating the LDS, if you bought your regulators and BC from them instead.

If that makes you comfortable fine. IMO, though, it's throwing them a crump without ever addressing any of the real issues.

 

[Whitelightnin]

Wait a minute, I thought you said you had a dive shop!

In the last 10 years, I've bought 2 cars spending under 40k. Nobody knocks on my hotel door unless they have the wrong room.

You must really be doing something right. Is that shop located right next to your oil wells?

LOL You don't miss much.

Actually, I have two restaraunts that allowed me to retire (at 38) & that is where I learned my customer appreciation/relation skills. My Daughter (14) started diving with me after I retired & loved it. I got bored & she wanted to own a dive shop when she gets older (I sometimes wonder about her when she starts thinking that way) so I bought one.
Now, I'm definately NOT BORED. It has been a LEARNING experience ( to say the least).

James

 

[mikswi]

If I was going to do it again I'd do it like LP if I could find the sources for equipment. Way easier to just run a website and a warehouse. I wouldn't have a compressor and I wouldn't teach. Skip the shop insurance, UW liability insurance, fill station costs and long hours in the water. I'd just maintain a website and pack boxes. That's where the money is. Of course if you're going to do that why sell dive equipment. You could sell something that more than 1% of the population uses. I'll bet there's more money in porn.

"You sure wouldn't be on here trying to figure out how this all works"
"I'll give you a clue. Most people have almost everything they would need in their garage, the trunk of their car or maybe even in a kitchen drawer.

The only thing you might not have is a pressure gauge to measure the intermediate pressure which any one can buy and use. They can be set up to snap right on to a LP inflator hose. To use it you just look at the number under the needle."

As long as your not bitter...............

 

[MikeFerrara]

As long as your not bitter...............

As long as I'm not bitter...what?

Why would I be bitter? I think it's funny that so many believe they need special tools to assemble a new-in-the-box reg.

Next thing some one will say that they paid to get their dry suit O2 clean to dive nitrox. LOL

 

[TX101]

As long as your not bitter...............

Jesus.. Mike is telling you guys how the system works and you are hanging sh*t on him for it?

I've never met Mike, never set foot in his store and never dived with him (hell, I don't even live in the same country). But from reading his posts on this board and others for the last few years, I do know that he knows his stuff. I'd take a class from him and/or dive with him any day - And when he talks, I listen.

Most of you guys have no experience running a dive shop. But sh*t, I guess everyone is an expert on the internet.