LDS Disillusionment

[TCDiver1]

Isn't it pretty much a given that ANY consumer is shopping for the best price??

Nope. Lowest price isn't always the only thing i look for as a consumer. Value comes in many shapes and sizes in my book.

 

[outlawaggie]

Nope. Lowest price isn't always the only thing i look for as a consumer. Value comes in many shapes and sizes in my book.

I agree. but in the case here we are talking about walking into a shop for the first time. so value is based on price. service is not part of the picture yet.

 

[bradb21]

Nope. Lowest price isn't always the only thing i look for as a consumer. Value comes in many shapes and sizes in my book.

Very true, but doesn't give LDS's the right to mark up equipment 50%, and tell customers that equipment bought off the internet is not safe. To me that's lies and ripoffs!

 

[yknot]

All i'm saying is, good business is a two way street. IMO, both customer and LDS have a part to play in making that happen.

Yes and no. The internet has tilted at least some aspects of gear purchasing towards a savvy buyer. What ever happened to the "customer is always right", "service first" mentality that put retailers like Sam Walton on top in the first place? When a LDS alienates me as a customer I have other choices, meaning that Mr. LDS owner is replacible. Can the same be said of a customer? The business model that supported the dive industry as it stands today is outdated.

Another belief I can't quite grasp is that it is somehow unethical to look at an item at a LDS and then buy it online. That's called comparison shopping and consumers do it constantly for most major purchases. Actually, the LDS should have made a better play for the $$$ when the diver was there fingering the goods in the first place, instead of hoping that they never find LP's web site.

 

[TCDiver1]

Very true, but doesn't give LDS's the right to mark up equipment 50%, and tell customers that equipment bought off the internet is not safe. To me that's lies and ripoffs!

Okay folks, before you all keel-haul me, i want to make sure you know, i don't own a LDS, i'm not related to a LDS, i have no interests in a LDS .... etc.

I don't know if a 50% mark-up on equipment is too much. What is too much? How does one determine what is too much?

 

[MikeFerrara]

A large part of the frustration stems from a perception (at least by some) that the manufacturers and distributors are EVIL and that we should pity the poor LDS owners for being caught between a sales agreement and an uninformed demanding dive consumer base. First, no one forced the LDS' into signing those agreements and they have to shoulder some of the blame. Second, business is tough all over, not just in the dive industry. If I wasn't struggling for my own career in the face of third world cheap labor maybe I wouldn't be so cost concience. My customers have been hammering us about prices and this "world market" junk so long I'm starting to believe it and apply it to other areas of my life, like at LDS's.

The other part of the LDS's BS I don't get applies to the lines of gear that do allow online sales. I have two types of LDS's to choose from in my area. One type has a major product line, like Aqualung or ScubaPro. These lines appear to not like to be sold next to each other, BTW, which does limit choice, but in both cases they don't allow internet or mail order sales. The second type of LDS has no major line but instead has an array of smaller gear lines. Some of these products do allow internet sales with warranties but invariably when I look at the product in the shop it's priced like it's the last one on earth. Of course I had to "waste" someone's time looking- the product was locked up in a glass case with the price tag turned over so I couldn't see it otherwise. Why should I support or pity these business practices?

The shops get a healthy share of the blame, if for no other reason, because the whole thing can't be done without them. They have to go along or it all falls apart and most have chosen to go along.

 

[MikeFerrara]

From a bystander's viewpoint on this particular thread and no other, as the thread and discussion continued along, his posts seemed to get more and more jaded.

You people and this word "jaded". I'm just telling you what my experiences in this business have been and trying to give you some insight as to how it effects you even when you're not buying equipment and regardless of where you buy equipment.

I'm not jaded, I have no reason to ever take another diving class (so it can't effect me there). I own the best fill station in the state. (so it can't effect me there). I have sources for equipment and parts (so it can't effect me there). I do all my own service. In other words my diving is almost completely independant and uneffected by any of this. It effects you...not me.

Start from the beginning and read to the end. Just that. That's all I did, and that's how I got my viewpoint about Mike. Simply from that. I'm not stereotyping him or telling him how to run his shop. I'm just not sure if I would listen to someone who beretted me for joining the boards because I'm a newbie and obviously don't know anything because I didn't go to his dive store...which doesn't exist anymore.

A couple things here. First, I never beretted you for joining the board or being a newbie. I've spent more time working with new divers both in and out of the water than you are likely to spend in all your diving for a long time to come. I have never beretted any one for being new. I did suggest that you might be out of place argueing about something that you admit to knowing absolutely nothing about. Second, I couldn't care less whether you listen to me or not. As far as I'm concerned you are absolutely free to pay double for your equipment because you need special tools to assemble it or get your dry suit O2 cleaned for that matter.

Third, as I've tried to explain, it's not a matter of stereotyping you. I am all too familiar with the attributes of typical entry level training, why it's that way and the results. Just as I'm familiar with issues effecting shops and the practices of manufacurers through first hand experience as a shop owner, I am familiar with training standards and how they are applied through the first hand experience of being an instructor for multiple agencies and having taught for multiple shops (one being my own) and as an independant. In addition these are all things that I have discussed directly with both certification agencies and equipment manufacturers.


Now after all that I walked away with certain points of view. Some aspects are simple facts and some are my conclusions drawn from those facts. feel free to disagree with my conclusions based on your own experience but would you prefer that I lie about the facts so you don't think I'm so jaded? Why ask questions if you don't really want the answers?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Very true, but doesn't give LDS's the right to mark up equipment 50%, and tell customers that equipment bought off the internet is not safe. To me that's lies and ripoffs!

they have every right to mark things up just as much as they please within the restrictions of the dealer agreement that they signed. Although i've never seen a dealer agreement that placed any restrictions on the maximum allowable markup...only the minimum.

As far as their claim that buying online or from unauthorized dealers is not safe, that's pretty much what the manufacturer claims. Check out some of their web pages. I think several manufacturers have such warning online.

In my experience some people working in shops actually believe it and some just try to scare you with it.

There are risks that go with buying from an unauthorized dealers and I personally know divers who have been bit. However, none of it should be dangerous because you're supposed to check the function of your equipment before you jump in the water.

 

[yknot]

Now after all that I walked away with certain points of view. Some aspects are simple facts and some are my conclusions drawn from those facts. feel free to disagree with my conclusions based on your own experience but would you prefer that I lie about the facts so you don't think I'm so jaded? Why ask questions if you don't really want the answers?

As someone with ties to the dive industry, past and at least present, where are we today and where are we headed? Regardless of anyone's OPINION, training standards aren't going to get anything but easier and the internet isn't going to go away.

 

[TCDiver1]

Another belief I can't quite grasp is that it is somehow unethical to look at an item at a LDS and then buy it online. That's called comparison shopping and consumers do it constantly for most major purchases. Actually, the LDS should have made a better play for the $$$ when the diver was there fingering the goods in the first place, instead of hoping that they never find LP's web site.

Tell you what yknot, seems you have the LDS business model all figured out. Your from Michigan, why don't you start a LDS here. You should really whip the all the competition.

I for one would gladly drive to your shop to pay LeisurePro prices for any and all gear i needed. Make sure you sell nitrox and trimix too. I could really use some LeisurePro pricing on that too!