LDS Disillusionment

[MikeFerrara]

Because the Scuba equipment manufacturers and distributers price restrictions on authorized dealers create such a competative advantage for "grey market" dealers. Don't forget, that 1% is about 3,000,000 potential customers just in the US.

No arguement from me. It doesn't sound like much fun though so I'll just leave that business to some one else. LOL

 

[fashionablylate]

The divers who need them are the ones who still need some classes, complain about the prices (so they buy online) and then complain that they're not treated like a valued customer when they go looking for service or advice.

I don't think that's a particularly fair assessment. I am still very much interested in classes and equipment -- I bought two Al 80's just this morning while waiting for my PST 120's to arrive. The point of this thread was not to complain about LDS pricing; it was to help me understand more about the relationship between the LDS and the customer, and the value that is incorporated into the price difference between an online retailer, and the LDS. I've literally spent thousands of dollars at the LDS in a short period of time, and plan to spend more there in the future -- but I would be furious if the dive shop owner turned around after all this and treated me like crap because I bought a Light Cannon from an online dealer instead of the LDS.
-Andrew

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't think that's a particularly fair assessment. I am still very much interested in classes and equipment -- I bought two Al 80's just this morning while waiting for my PST 120's to arrive. The point of this thread was not to complain about LDS pricing; it was to help me understand more about the relationship between the LDS and the customer, and the value that is incorporated into the price difference between an online retailer, and the LDS. I've literally spent thousands of dollars at the LDS in a short period of time, and plan to spend more there in the future -- but I would be furious if the dive shop owner turned around after all this and treated me like crap because I bought a Light Cannon from an online dealer instead of the LDS.
-Andrew

Maybe you weren't trying to complain but many do.

This is the relationship between the shop and the diver in most places.

Once you realize there are other places to buy, get information and start to wonder why they won't allow you to work on your own equipment they will have little use for you because you'll only have use for what they work real hard at making nothing on. They certainly won't want you talking to their customers at that point.

They need you to pay what the manufacturers tell them they must charge.

 

[Vengro]

Maybe you weren't trying to complain but many do.

So how about instead of saying "Why don't these whiners shut up? Can't they see they're ruining a business?" (and that is what you've been saying, no matter how you deny it), ask "Are their complaints valid?"

Reading through this entire thread, it seems to me that both sides have valid arguments, and you, Mike, have become progressively more cynical and jaded as the conversation continued. You went from standing firm on LDS's to doom and destruction. That's not the way to go about it.

I am a novice to diving like Andrew is, but that still doesn't mean I'm completely stupid. I understand why dive shops charge what they do, but at the same time, they have to understand that this is the 21st century and a lot of not only information but also equipment can be bought on the internet for cheaper prices. If they want to compete, then they should adapt or die. The term "survival of the fittest" is always misused, but at the same time, I think it fits this scenario.

I think it's funny how this thread has veered off into no man's land. Andrew's original question was if he should be worried about his LDS owner getting ticked at him for buying a light. At the same time, this question is hard to answer for those who don't know this particular owner, since each person is different, and so is each dive shop. I would say, based on how he's been acting when you bring up equipment, groups or information not gained from his store that he would be a bit miffed. I'm not sure if he would tell you not to talk to his customers, but at the same time, you don't do that anyways.

Someone brought up a car scenario a little bit ago, and I have to disagree with the correlation. Having the dive shop owner simply explain the pros and cons for a particular piece of diving equipment, talking about which one is the "best" in terms of brand name and performance and naming the prices would be similar to going to a car dealership and getting the speil from the salesman. When you go to the dive shop and "pick the owner's brain," it is assumed that the person asking the questions is not just talking about equipment but also the diving experience itself and how the piece of equipment would act in the water environment, the dealer's own personal preference and what they use, their own experiences, etc. A sales pitch compared to that is nothing. You can get the sales pitch by looking up information on the internet.

At any rate, there's not much I can contribute to this conversation since I haven't had many experiences with either LDSs or online companies, however, I can say that you're all acting like five year olds at this point, and simply repeating what everyone else has already said at the very beginning of the thread, not to mention, completely ignoring what the original purpose of this thread was.

 

[MikeFerrara]

At any rate, there's not much I can contribute to this conversation since I haven't had many experiences with either LDSs or online companies...

If you don't have much experience with either then just what are you talking about? If you listen you might pick up a few things that are useful to you at this stage of your diving career.

 

[mstudley]

The dive shop I frequent the most realizes that people have other places to go to buy their equipment, online or brick & mortar.

As a result they are willing to match some prices from LP and others. You can tell them that LP has is cheaper and they will try very hard to match their price.

They also give me breaks on some stuff. If I'm purchasing something expensive (ie. drysuit) they'll throw in some extras at cost sometimes (like a hood, weight, etc) or a free air fill.

I'll be buying all my life support stuff from them in the future as a result. The other little piddly stuff I'll get online if I can't find it there. They treat me well so I give them my money instead of some faceless online shop.

 

[Vengro]

If you do't have much experience with either then just what are you talking about? If you listen you might pick up a few things that are useful to you at this stage of your diving career.

So far, I've learned that either divers are for their LDS or they're against it. Your arguments have swayed me in neither direction, although if I had gone to a shop for the first time and you were the owner, I'm not sure how much further I would have gone in diving afterwards.

At the same time, I have an advantage over everyone else on this thread because I know the shop owner whom Andrew is talking about, since I was there when Andrew bought his gear, and I've interacted with this guy on several occasions. I think that how the dive owner will respond to any given situation will differ from shop to shop since no owner is like another. Why? Because they're all different people, and people act differently depending on their personality. It also depends on the customer, and how they've acted towards the owner in their own interactions.

I'd hope that after Andrew spent as much money as he did on products which he obviously could have gotten for a better price on the internet that the owner would not get miffed if he bought smaller equipment from the internet simply because it is cheaper. Some people can afford to spend thousands of dollars on equipment, but we're not all as lucky, and at the end of the day, my own preoccupation is if I have enough to support my diving fun and still function in the world. It's a dog eat dog world, and sometimes, the most important person you have to watch out for is yourself. Sad, but true.

So, no, I don't know much about diving, but at the same time, I do understand people to a degree and what makes the world turn and how one business is pretty much the same as another, with the only difference being what's sold. And now we're really veering from the topic.

 

[redacted]

... I do understand people to a degree and what makes the world turn and how one business is pretty much the same as another, with the only difference being what's sold. And now we're really veering from the topic.

OK, you didn't like the car analogy. Something about saleman vs. owner which, in many DSs, are often one in the same. So let me try again. Can you really imagine you local Ford dealer blackballing you because you bought you new Ford from the dealer in the next town?

 

[Vengro]

OK, you didn't like the car analogy. Something about saleman vs. owner which, in many DSs, are often one in the same. So let me try again. Can you really imagine you local Ford dealer blackballing you because you bought you new Ford from the dealer in the next town?

They said that a lot of the times when you buy things from the internet, they have to be set up, and you need to have special equipment in order to set it up correctly. The only way you could compare the two situations is by buying a car in pieces from another dealer and then going to the original dealer with the pieces and asking them to put it together for you but not charge you for the service since you already, essentially, paid for the pieces and simply want to be able to use them.

Also, filling your tires up with air costs nothing while filling your tanks up with air costs a small amount. Maintenance on a car costs a lot more than getting your tanks checked and having your belt readjusted. I have yet to order a car on the internet and have it arrive in package form six to eight weeks later. If you're going to compare and contrast two services, pick something other than car dealerships.

I do understand where you're coming from, though. I understand why you would choose the internet over the LDS. I'm just nitpicking your choice of example.

 

[yknot]

Someone brought up a car scenario a little bit ago, and I have to disagree with the correlation. Having the dive shop owner simply explain the pros and cons for a particular piece of diving equipment, talking about which one is the "best" in terms of brand name and performance and naming the prices would be similar to going to a car dealership and getting the speil from the salesman. When you go to the dive shop and "pick the owner's brain," it is assumed that the person asking the questions is not just talking about equipment but also the diving experience itself and how the piece of equipment would act in the water environment, the dealer's own personal preference and what they use, their own experiences, etc. A sales pitch compared to that is nothing. You can get the sales pitch by looking up information on the internet.

This analogy is completely relevant. If you go into a Chevy dealer, tell the salesman you want to look at Corvettes. Ask anything you want or imply whatever you can about how you are going to drive the car and see if you can get him to tell you that you really should be looking at a Porsche. The same holds true at the LDS. They aren't imparting mountains of wisdom, simply trying to sell you what they carry, not what's best for you and your goals. In all the times I've been in a lot of different LDS's, I've overheard more bad advise and outright BS than good advise. I've also NEVER heard a diver told that he should seek a brand the store doesn't have or told that the type of diving they want to do requires training unavailable thru that store. By throwing in all of that "free" advice as to how to use stuff (their brand of whatever), they make you feel like a valued friend instead of a customer. It's amazing on how "expert" some of these people portray themselves as. I recently heard a LDS owner go on and on about what a great piece of gear the Seaquest Fusion BC's are because they eliminate the "issue" of an inflator hose. Am I missing something here? Can someone be so full of BS this time and right about everything else?