Kauai accident

[O_Rings]

Aloha all. This is my first post to Scubaboard and I wish it was on better terms. I am the instructor that Busdiver mentioned in his post when he said he was told the diver lived. I apologize because it was completely a misunderstanding on my part. I was mistaken and didn't investigate the situation as much as I should have. Basically I "heard exactly what I wanted to hear" when talking to the people involved in the incident and didn't ask for more clarification because it's become quite a sensitive subject locally. For this I am very sorry that I was part of the people spreading false information.

After apologizing I'd also like to take a moment to comment on this. I was at the scene when the incident happened. I had a group of non-certified divers with me that day and was set-up right next to the Divemaster in question. I spoke to both the Divemaster and those 2 divers prior to their dive. I was underwater leading a tour during the incident in question and came out while the ambulance and rescue crews were still there.

My observations.

1. During my (and my divers) conversation with the Divemaster and his divers prior to the incident, I saw no indication of inhibited mental function on the part of anyone involved.
2. Conditions that day were completely normal for a location that has 4-6 Dive companies taking out certified and non-certified divers on a daily basis.
3. I saw the woman in question sign the medical waiver. I know there was some difficulty finding the waivers for the police during the incident.
4. There have been many different versions of exactly what happened even among the Instructors & Divemasters who were at the scene during the incident.

I could offer some other facts regarding that day or diving conditions at that location if asked, however at this point I would like to avoid speculating. I try very hard to only tell the truth but, obviously, none of us are perfect and it's very easy to add our opinions to the facts without realizing it.

I suspect that some who have commented on this are active members of the professional dive community here in Kauai. If so I would encourage you to come forward and say so. I think it is worth mentioning that some comments could be construed as damaging towards the operation involved. I would like to point out that in situations like this, it's the entire scuba community that is harmed instead of a single dive shop or location. I would hope that we would work together to improve ourselves.

Finally, my heart goes out to the family that had to take one of their own off life support. I have had this happen to my own family members and to friends. It's one of the most difficult decisions I've ever seen anyone make.

Aloha

 

[Teamcasa]

O Rings, Thank you for posting. I hope you realize my posts were a reply to a hypothetical situation.

I love diving in Kauai and plan on diving there again this July. I have been to Koloa landing before (Kaki certified my wife and I there a few years ago) and I plan on having my nephew take his first Discover Scuba there as well.

I do not believe this rare incident reflects badly on the dive professionals, sometimes bad things happen and my heart felt sympathies go out to the Divemaster and the family of the diver.

Aloha

 

[Diver Dennis]

I thank you as well O Rings. We all make mistakes but it's nice to see people with the guts to set things straight.

 

[Papa_Bear]

I guess I don't read between the lines well? I don't know anything more than before! What was a DM doing with a non-certified diver? For now that is the only thing anyone has said that someone on scene has confirmed! Other than that, I am at a loss to see what O-Ring has anything to say he was sorry for? He heard it from someone and someone else passed what he had heard on! That is the problem I see with these posts in the first place! It is always an he said that he had heard from someone else! O-Ring couldn't know that the info he got was wrong, otherwise why would he pass it on? So you don't have to apologize as I see it for anything! We all lose is right, but we lose more when we point fingers at anyone until we "Know" what happened!

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Now to elaborate, What if a client Put's all No's and clearly has a yes that you can see and observe from looking at and talking to the person. What would you do?

One student checked NO when she clearly suffered from panic attacks. One pool session and I asked her if she had issues with stress control and she said "I suffer from panic attacks".

She got a refund.

That's what I do.

 

[KarenCD]

Just a general rule around here, blame PADI, but here becomes the problem, do we know if they did screen the person? In todays world people will sue you if you "Discriminate" by age, Health, or any number of other reasons! A woman Photographer just got fined for refusing to take wedding pictures at a gay wedding in New Mexico! So the woman insists that the "Last thing she wants to do in her life is dive" and you say no because she is not fit! Then under the Americans with Disabilities Act you can't refuse to teach her without facing a problem! So again if she insists then I guess you move forward? With that said where was the pool work? What were the conditions? Again without being directly involved how can we judge and as far as two problems doesn't mean a thing! I see golfers on the course right after lighting killed one! Personal responsibility is the answer! Reading the release and understanding that when you step out of the plane at 10000ft you might die! So when you go underwater you can't breath it!

The said thing is the family will not recover against the operator even if they didn't do everything right! Wrongful death suits are long expensive and guess what the value of her life is not much, because of her age and health! A lawyer will say she would have died in a year or two anyway so what value can you award? That is a fact! I real life this would be a hard case for an attorney to make any money on! So their insurance will pay to settle and we may never know the truth!

I think he is saying pretty much the reality of it will not be known. I am not good at reading between the lines either but television didn't follow up, the paper didn't follow up, cdnn didn't follow up, the divemaster is probably diving (speculating) other tourists cause the television didn't follow up, the paper didn't follow up, cdnn didn't follow up and tourists keep lining up - papa bear has a point. BusDriver had a question, someone mis-spoke, someone spotted the mis-speak, tried to address the mis-speak and Papa Bear spoke the hard reality of it. Maybe it is all jibba jabba. But it is what it is - someone died - life goes on everyone thanks someones coming forth (which is admirable) to say they were the person that originally mis-spoke but dead is still dead and a family will suffer - I am sure the person who died would have come forth if they could and say - yes, it is my fault. I paid a professional who took my money for a supervised tour, because I was left alone in a world that was foreign to me it is my fault that my supervised tour became a unsupervised tour and that I did panic and die. I never did want to see my family, my children again, I never wanted to say goodbye, the very last thing I wanted in this world was to left alone in a place where common sense tells you - people cannot breathe water - by a professional I paid to supervise me. And I would like to thank everyone who has thanked me for coming forth and taking the responsibility of my actions to pay for a professional to supervise me but failing to know what to do when I was left alone, all now is right with the world. I am being cynical but not about Papa Bears hard reality.

 

[PuMpUi]

(Regarding a comment made at the beginning of this thread ....)


Cleared by PADI? Good to go? Maybe not.

Let me pose this hypothetical situation to the board members …

Dive Company A is a Certifying Dive Agency B Resort, and is insured by Insurance Company C, who has promised to defend Dive Company A in the event of a lawsuit, regardless of their guilt or innocence (for sake of this hypothetical situation, let’s just disregard whether or not Insurance Company C will pay out if Dive Company A is sued and found negligent, at least for the time being, OK?).

Dive Master D, presumed to be an employee of Dive Company A, has an in-water problem which results in serious bodily harm to another person … and Certifying Dive Agency B and Insurance Company C decides to send out their own Private Investigator to gather information for them. (Remember now, this PI is working for Insurance Company C, and is there to “advise” them as to what their “exposure” is, based on eyewitness reports and statements.)

After completing his report, the Private Investigator files his report with (presumably) his employer, Insurance Company C and with Certifying Dive Agency B. What next?

• Let’s pretend that the PI reports that “all is well on the Garden Island” and that Dive Master D and Dive Company A did absolutely nothing wrong. Would this stop the family from suing for wrongful death, negligence, et cetera? Who would pay? A,B,C,D ??? All of the above?

• Let’s pretend that the PI reports that “all is not so well on the Garden Island” and there have been some really inappropriate actions taken by Dive Master D and Dive Company A. (Of course, both the Dive Master D and Dive Company A would like to request “do over” on this entire situation, but since there has been a serious injury to another person, a “do over” is not an option that is going to made available to them at this time.)

If you were Certifying Dive Agency B or Insurance Company C, you might be in a difficult situation. For example, hypothetically speaking, of course:

IF you found that Dive Master D was at fault and then “sanctioned” Dive Master D – or even revoked his C-card – would that lead others to believe that Certifying Dive Agency B and Insurance Company C believed that Dive Master D was guilty? What might that do to the Insurance Company’s exposure when the family sues?

IF you found that Dive Master D was at fault but then you did not “sanction” Dive Master D in order to “mitigate” Insurance Company C’s exposure … you may be protecting the interests of the Shareholders of Certifying Dive Agency B and Insurance Company C, but doesn’t the injured party deserve something better?

On the other hand, if the PI’s report was simply “shelved” and efforts were made to silence open discussion of the incident, in the hopes that it would “all just go away” … it might be years before the jury hears the case, regardless of the age of the injured party.

Other than that … I have no opinion. I am going back to my paper route now.

 

[ChrisA]

Have them sign this form:

I recognize and acknowledge that I have not been honest filling out my medical information form. Attested by my signature below I realize and understand that diving today may very well end up severely injuring and or killing me.

That can't work either. The instructor has a duty not to put people at risk. Once he knows the person should not dive he he can't take them diving. The key point is wether he knows there is a problem. Once he knows there is no "going back"

This is related to the idea that you can't sign away your rights. For example One can not sell themselves into slavery. Any such contract would be invalid. Same here. If the instructor has a duty to watch out for your saftey you can't sign that away.

 

[300bar]

MOD WARNING
Please stay ON topic and stop the name calling​

 

[Gombessa]

Papabear I am quoting you from #30 you said

"The said thing is the family will not recover against the operator even if they didn't do everything right! Wrongful death suits are long expensive and guess what the value of her life is not much, because of her age and health"

Are you kidding me ????no

Who are you to say what her life is worth?

I'm not starting from the beginning of the thread, and from your sig you'll see I'm not a big fan of you-know-who...but he's got a point there. In the eyes of the legal system, the worth of a life can be quantifiable. Recovery for the wrongful death of a young person who just graduated from medical school and was starting work at a prestigious hospital is going to be much higher than for a 95-year old bedridden man, just as an example.