Jill Heinerth training video
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ucfdiver
Contributor
Exactly. I don't see how she can say I'm putting her in the middle when she commented multiple times on a thread-
- not having any cave training
- never having dove the site
- never having taken a class with the instructor in question
Leslie and Heather are the only two female instructors I'm aware of that teach NAUI cave, and each have different sn's on here. I read that statement the same way you did.
ajduplessis
Contributor
I don't know of any instrcutors around here that would allow a single cylinder diver into any cave no matter how shallow or short.
Interesting... it's not that long ago that doubles were prohibited at the intro level...
Rick
LiteHedded
Contributor
Good thing these things change
Hello there!
Let me try to answer some of the questions brought up in this thread about my motivations of posting such material and in the same breath give you some sort of explanation of why I was taken aback by that video. But first of all I would really like to point out that I posted this video not realizing (yeah, stupid me, I cannot even believe why I didn’t think of it…
that Jill or anyone personally knowing her might read this and be offended or take my question/criticism (really depends on how you take it) as a part of a well choreographed „character assassination”.
It’s like… I don’t know …. bashing the new ipod's design than realizing you are posting your message on the apple's employee mailing list and finding out that Steve Jobs is about to bite your head off. I don’t know if any of that makes any sense, but I didn’t mean any personal insults which was probably mostly due to the poorly framed question. I can now perfectly see why this looks like an effort to bash someone's reputation, but from more than 5000 miles away that was clearly not my intention. I just wanted to discuss the video with people that obviously know more about cave diving that I do since I found a lot of things in it, that was contrary to the stuff I have been reading about. Jill I’m sorry!
So back to me: I always wanted to go in the direction of technical diving, so naturally I spent countless hours surfing on the internet, brought at least 10 books on diving (not only OW stuff, but decompression theories, cave diving etc) and talked to numerous instructors. Apart from one (more on that later) everyone confirmed that it is indeed a serious thing and how technical diving shouldn’t be taken lightly (it is even pinned in the sticky section on this forum).
So then after all those reading and with close to zero actual diving experience (seeing my enthusiasm) I was invited to take a cave course, with only 15 dives under my belt, that consisted of only 5 dives with no open water dives (line drills would have been practiced in a parking lot… so instead of welcoming the opportunity I got pissed at the instructor because everyone was talking about how demanding the cave environment was and I'd thought I was clearly not up to the task...and after watching the video I was shocked that one of the „legends” of the sport does the same overseas ...?
If you watch the videos (not only the one in the original post, but the rest on youtube) you will realize that she is completely unable to maintain horizontal trim (mono tank setup) her fin work is seriously the worst I have seen (counting myself) EVEN when not doing line drills and obviously (or I have that strong impression) NOT affected by the flow. A lot of times I saw her holding on to the wall while floating, while the others remained completely still without the single thrust from their fins, or I could mention the time when she uses her hands to navigate in the water etc … so it was a shock to me that someone with 10 years of diving experience (?) would perform this poor in this environment and that she would earn a c-card with it. [Not to mention the mono setup, and that the tube was tucked under the canister dive light, giving me the impression that in case of an emergy it would waste precious time trying to free it, etc...]
Yes, I'm not a cave diver but with those impressions in my mind (they might not be true) I turned to this forum for some eagerly awaited insights. Hope that clears me from the accusations of being a troll and sorry for the wall of text and the grammar fails and above all ... from Jill.
Let me try to answer some of the questions brought up in this thread about my motivations of posting such material and in the same breath give you some sort of explanation of why I was taken aback by that video. But first of all I would really like to point out that I posted this video not realizing (yeah, stupid me, I cannot even believe why I didn’t think of it…
that Jill or anyone personally knowing her might read this and be offended or take my question/criticism (really depends on how you take it) as a part of a well choreographed „character assassination”.It’s like… I don’t know …. bashing the new ipod's design than realizing you are posting your message on the apple's employee mailing list and finding out that Steve Jobs is about to bite your head off. I don’t know if any of that makes any sense, but I didn’t mean any personal insults which was probably mostly due to the poorly framed question. I can now perfectly see why this looks like an effort to bash someone's reputation, but from more than 5000 miles away that was clearly not my intention. I just wanted to discuss the video with people that obviously know more about cave diving that I do since I found a lot of things in it, that was contrary to the stuff I have been reading about. Jill I’m sorry!
So back to me: I always wanted to go in the direction of technical diving, so naturally I spent countless hours surfing on the internet, brought at least 10 books on diving (not only OW stuff, but decompression theories, cave diving etc) and talked to numerous instructors. Apart from one (more on that later) everyone confirmed that it is indeed a serious thing and how technical diving shouldn’t be taken lightly (it is even pinned in the sticky section on this forum).
So then after all those reading and with close to zero actual diving experience (seeing my enthusiasm) I was invited to take a cave course, with only 15 dives under my belt, that consisted of only 5 dives with no open water dives (line drills would have been practiced in a parking lot…
so instead of welcoming the opportunity I got pissed at the instructor because everyone was talking about how demanding the cave environment was and I'd thought I was clearly not up to the task...and after watching the video I was shocked that one of the „legends” of the sport does the same overseas ...? If you watch the videos (not only the one in the original post, but the rest on youtube) you will realize that she is completely unable to maintain horizontal trim (mono tank setup) her fin work is seriously the worst I have seen (counting myself) EVEN when not doing line drills and obviously (or I have that strong impression) NOT affected by the flow. A lot of times I saw her holding on to the wall while floating, while the others remained completely still without the single thrust from their fins, or I could mention the time when she uses her hands to navigate in the water etc … so it was a shock to me that someone with 10 years of diving experience (?) would perform this poor in this environment and that she would earn a c-card with it. [Not to mention the mono setup, and that the tube was tucked under the canister dive light, giving me the impression that in case of an emergy it would waste precious time trying to free it, etc...]
Yes, I'm not a cave diver but with those impressions in my mind (they might not be true) I turned to this forum for some eagerly awaited insights. Hope that clears me from the accusations of being a troll and sorry for the wall of text and the grammar fails and above all ... from Jill.
Last edited:
Levigarrett
Registered
Taking a cursory glance at the NACD website I can see that single cylinders are allowed only up to and not beyond "Intro to Cave Diving." Additionally, it seems to me that the folks at NACD well articulate the restrictions and goals of this course. I'm not so sure that I'd find a single cylinder sufficient for my comfort level but I can certainly understand why that gear configuration would be allowed for such an entry level program.
I'm not remotely familiar with the site used for training in this video. From those of you familiar, does the length/distance of penetration portrayed in the video appear consistent with NACD's stated course purpose;
Purpose: To develop a cave diving proficiency within limitations of a single tank. It is for the diver who does not wish the burden of double tanks or is not interested in cave exploration and long decompression dives. It is recreational cave diving course. The course develops and establishes minimum skills, knowledge, dive planning abilities, problem solving procedures and the basic abilities necessary to safely cave dive using single cylinders. (Taken directly from the NACD website)
In other words, in your judgement, we're they beyond the intended scope of the course as it's described above?
Finally, I thought the non-response ...response from Jill (whom I do not know) was well articulated. I teach occasionally on my time off from work. It's reasonably technical stuff and I also occasionally take students to points beyond their capabilities to asses their aptitude for continued training. Generally, as she points out, the students often come to the same conclusion as I when their performance isn't what it should be. I may very well have suspected their impending failure prior to my exercise. That being said, it's far easier for me to convince a student that remedial training is necessary after such an exercise has taken place than if I were to present it to them without proving it first hand.
We don't know what the result of this training was or if this diver was certed or received additional training. Concluding that she isn't ready for full cave is the easy part. Determining an alternate course of instruction is a bit harder and this demonstration (caught on tape) will do wonders for her should she decide to continue. It also makes it far easier for her instructor to make difficult recommendations about the students future diving education.
I'm not remotely familiar with the site used for training in this video. From those of you familiar, does the length/distance of penetration portrayed in the video appear consistent with NACD's stated course purpose;
Purpose: To develop a cave diving proficiency within limitations of a single tank. It is for the diver who does not wish the burden of double tanks or is not interested in cave exploration and long decompression dives. It is recreational cave diving course. The course develops and establishes minimum skills, knowledge, dive planning abilities, problem solving procedures and the basic abilities necessary to safely cave dive using single cylinders. (Taken directly from the NACD website)
In other words, in your judgement, we're they beyond the intended scope of the course as it's described above?
Finally, I thought the non-response ...response from Jill (whom I do not know) was well articulated. I teach occasionally on my time off from work. It's reasonably technical stuff and I also occasionally take students to points beyond their capabilities to asses their aptitude for continued training. Generally, as she points out, the students often come to the same conclusion as I when their performance isn't what it should be. I may very well have suspected their impending failure prior to my exercise. That being said, it's far easier for me to convince a student that remedial training is necessary after such an exercise has taken place than if I were to present it to them without proving it first hand.
We don't know what the result of this training was or if this diver was certed or received additional training. Concluding that she isn't ready for full cave is the easy part. Determining an alternate course of instruction is a bit harder and this demonstration (caught on tape) will do wonders for her should she decide to continue. It also makes it far easier for her instructor to make difficult recommendations about the students future diving education.
The only thing that's "changed" is that doubles are now tolerated at the intro level, to one sixth penetration. Singles with "H" valves (or "Y" valves, for that matter) are perfectly acceptable with (unless something else has changed) NACD, IANTD, NSS-CDS and TDI, and, as that's the standard, their instructors.
Rick
Hmmm... well... assuming they made it back out ok... nooo....
Seriously, no, they weren't beyond the intended limits of the course. They do need work.
Rick
Really....There's plenty of single tank Intro. to Cave divers out there. Why wouldn't they be allowed in a cave as long as they dive within the limits of their certification/experience??
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