Jacket inflate vs Back inflate

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On one level, you could say the photo shows a jacket bc wearer sporting a large yellow suppository... :).

On a more accurate appraisal, if precise control is important, then clearly the tow strap and crotch strap method is going to be used, as virtually the entire caving community would attest. If you are just blowing along far from any surfaces you could impact with, and you would like to shoot photos with your hands, then it could certainly work this way for some people....with my Gavin scooter-which pulls me , I can mount a camera to the scooter body and either shoot by pointing the scooter ( which turns and aims precisely...though with more mass than a camera) , or, I can have the camera quick release on and off in an instant....you can let go of the scooter and allow it to either sink down below your waist, or float upwards, depending on how you weight it-as it is connected to you it won't go anywhere, and can be ignored for the camera shots....

In actual practice, my wife takes the pictures, and I drag her along behind my scooter with her camera when scootering is more optimal than swimming for camera shots. The Gavin pulls a 2nd diver faster than most scooters will pull one diver.

DanV
AND!!! You are always supposed to have a buddy !! :)

Regards,
DanV
 
Based upon what criteria? Are your objections based upon hydrodynamics, aesthetics, or some other criteria? I know nothing about dpv's, but I am curious - why is halemanō's usage so offensive to you?

1, I don't find his posts offensive, just a tad "blow hard". FYI that photo is is the "look ma no hands" of riding dpvs.

I have seen a lot of divers learn to get perfect trim via DIR and seen great buoyancy control from the gosidemount.com site but I have yet to see any one using a jacket have such great form.

SangP
 
Let's step back a few posts. Back when we were helping a less than 24 dives diver decide if he should get a BI BC.

How many dive boat captains would let divers off his dive boat for a non drift dive if the current was over 3 mph?

No, no, forget that part; let's look "where the skin friction drag" layer "massively attenuates the current."

A vest BC diver would have the highest drag portion, the chest area with straps and poodle bladder, taking advantage of the "massive attenuation" of the current, with just the tank and reg set "up" in the higher flow current.

A BP/W diver has his "sleekest" part, the body and harness, down where the current is least, and his entire floppy bladder seems to be in a much higher current flow area. :idk:

The current on the wreck we were on for dive number 2 was huge. It was probably over 3 mph, and there were huge Eddie effects near any structure you would pass over. With my backplate and wing setup (Halcyon w/27 lb wing), I could skim inches on top of the bottom, where skin friction drag massively attenuates the current speed your body is in contact with. If I had been using a scuba pro stab jacket, I would have had a much harder time slipping through the fast water, as the drag differences are significant, and the ability to swim belly to the bottom are bigger still.
 
YouTube - Apollo AV1 Scooter

YouTube - Apollo AV1 - Part 2.

YouTube - Bass Point,Apollo AV-2 Evolution Scooters May 2010

YouTube - Diving Shellharbour on Apollo av2 Scooters

YouTube - Scuba Shellharbour Twinsets AV2 Apollo Scooters 01/08/10

It seems not just vest BC divers know how to most efficiently use an Apollo AV scooter. Of course the fact that Apollo sells a saddle with jetski style kill switch and variable speed control kind of makes the superman style not a secret.

Is it hypocritical for a person with a closed mind to demand that others have open minds?
 
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Let's step back again; back, back to that infamous post where we were helping a less than 24 dives diver decide if he should get a BI BC.

No, no, first I have to say I have never seen someone quote them self in the very next post; and I'm the one who gets called a "blow hard." :idk:

Now, back to the Gavin scooter that you use sometimes, that is your scooter, that is appropriate according to the entire DIR and cave community.

How much did that scooter cost and how much did your cave training and DIR training cost. Seems a reasonable argument for a guy wondering if a $250 BI is a good deal. :coffee:
....and for scootering, I would want a crotch strap and scooter tow ring ( like I have on my Halcyon). If you have a fast scooter ( like the Gavin I sometimes use), you do not want to try to hold yourself with the handles..you want to have the scooter pulling you from the crotch ring, and have the muscles in your arms totally relaxed, and your heart rate down to 60 bpm or lower ( unlikely if your arm muscles are exerting to hold on to a fast scooter). With DIR scootering, your arms have near zero work load, and steering is effortless.

On a more accurate appraisal, if precise control is important, then clearly the tow strap and crotch strap method is going to be used, as virtually the entire caving community would attest. If you are just blowing along far from any surfaces you could impact with, and you would like to shoot photos with your hands, then it could certainly work this way for some people....with my Gavin scooter-which pulls me , I can mount a camera to the scooter body and either shoot by pointing the scooter ( which turns and aims precisely...though with more mass than a camera) , or, I can have the camera quick release on and off in an instant....you can let go of the scooter and allow it to either sink down below your waist, or float upwards, depending on how you weight it-as it is connected to you it won't go anywhere, and can be ignored for the camera shots....
 
halemanō;5469730:
The problem with most of these "beginner wondering" threads is that pretty much half the "reasons" regularly given supporting "moving" to BP/W either have absolutely no factual basis or will not be realized until after many expensive training courses, significant diving experience and thousands of dollars of other specialized dive gear.

There's been a lot of Jacket vs BP&W threads over the last few years. All of them contained decent factually based arguments for choosing a BP&W.

You seem to imply that divers don't develop their requirements, or need to upgrade, until they reach a level where they are technical diving, an industry pro or take up a highly specialised activity such as scootering...

There are a thousand reasons why a diver would want to upgrade their equipment. The most common are:
a) Unsuitable initial choice of BCD.
b) Change in diving location (tropical/temperate water) i.e. exposure suit change.
c) Body shape/size change.
d) Development of requirements (weight/bulk for travelling, pockets, d-rings etc).

Jacket BCDs are not flexible, adaptable and cannot be upgraded. They are not modular. They are only available in set sizes. Because of this, they have to try and offer 'everything' needed. Long, dangling straps, to allow tightening (rather than a custom fitted harness). Lots of pockets everywhere - rather than a few pockets where the individual diver specifically needs them. A multitude of D-Rings..having to cover every possiblity, rather than a select number of attachment points, that can be moved by the user. etc etc etc

To provide some factual basis;

I have personally owned 7 BCDs since learning to dive nearly 2 decades ago. None of the first 5 BCDs ever got worn out. They were all sold... The last BCD (a Halcyon BP&W) I have owned for 7 years and 2000+ dives.

That means, in the first 12 years of diving I changed BCDS, on average, every 2 years (actually it was more frequently, because I only rented equipment for my first 2 years after certification).

So..why did I change BCDs so regularly? Here's a summary:

1) Buddy Commando (bought second hand) - Owned for 1 year. Sold because it was too small, once I started to dive drysuit. BCD could not be adjusted sufficiently large. A BP&W would have been suitable, as it is infinitely adjustable.

2) Buddy Commando No.2 (bought new) - Owned for 2 years. Sold because I wanted to get a rear-inflate BCD. This was because the jacket BCD felt too 'enclosing' around the torso in my drysuit and it would swing around if not fully cinched tight. I had tried a rear-inflate BCD and felt they offered better trim and bouyancy control.

3) Dacor Pro Rig - I bought this rear inflate tech 'wannabie' BCD because it was on sale and 'looked' like a wing. It was a piece of sh#t. I had a deep freeflow emergency and found that the jacket hampered my ascent because of the number of dangling straps, buckles etc etc. The pockets were inaccessable and the integrated weights fell out. After that emergency I never wore it again.

4) Zeagle Ranger - I bought this as a spur-of-the-moment choice, after my Dacor BCD contributed to an emergency. It had many strong recommendations online etc. Again, it never quite hit the mark and felt awkward. I wanted to dive doubles at this time..and it just didn't make the grade for that.

5) Custom Divers TDB - I bought this for doubles diving and for tech training. On my first course (TDI Adv Nitrox with Mark Powell), I learnt that I had wasted money. Mark demonstrated how my 'Luxury Harness' was unnecessary. The bungeed wing was unecessary. The twin bladder was unnecessary. I did keep the wing, but ended up replacing the harness to a basic Hog design.

6) Halcyon Eclipse 40 - My 'trimmed down' doubles wing was awesome...so I decided to standardise and bought a complete Halcyon Eclipse 40. I opted for the larger capacity 40lb wing, because I was diving drysuit, with high capacity steel cylinder, pony cylinder and umbilical torch. When I moved to Asia, I felt the 40lb was much bigger than I needed. I chose an aluminium backplate, because I already had a steel backplate with my customer divers wing, so I could then inter-change. I used the aluminium backplate for travelling as it was lighter.

7) Deep Sea 30lb - Luckily, because the BP&W is modular, I didn't need to replace the entire configuration. I wanted a smaller capacity wing...so I just bought a wing and changed it out for the Eclipse 40.


NOW..... with the benefit of hindsight and experience.... think of how I COULD have gone through that process....

1) Purchase initial BP&W for single tank diving. Adjustable, customized harness adapts for wetsuit and drysuit diving. Choose supplementary pockets, as needed. Add, remove or adjust D-rings, as needed.

2) Purchase doubles wing (wing only) for twinset diving. No need to replace backplate or harness. Capability now exists for full tech and cave diving activities.

That's it! Two purchases.... to last a lifetime!

One backplate lasts a lifetime.
Harness is infinitely adjustable.
Pockets, pouches and D-Rings added or removed as required.
Choose whichever bladder shape and size you need.
Any component replaced individually if broken worn - no expense to replace entire BCD.

FAR, FAR, FAR better than the cost involved with replacing an entire BCD every time your requirements change, something wears out or you want to improve your configuration...

I wish someone had told me those things when I was a newbie.
I wish I had saved so much time and money over the years.

Everyone has the option to dive in whatever gear they want. Those people advocating BP&W on this forum appreciate that. However, nobody should ever be apologetic for raising awareness of options and providing alternative advice.

A newbie diver can think what they want of the BP&W debates. They can choose to dive inwhatever configuration they want and/or like and should not be scorned or criticized for that. The only time they should be called 'idiots' is if they buy something without informed consideration and research of all the options available..
 
As for being more streamline and floppy wings... I fail to understand how this:
pioneer_profile.jpg

australia_dr-gbr072.jpg

is less streamline than this:
Zeagle_Ranger_LTD_09.jpg

47941_10171_raw.jpg


As DevonDiver and many others have mentioned, a bp/w is almost fully adjustable, individual bits are modular and replaceable.

Fun as the butt mounted dpv looks, I'll can't see it used in situations where you need more control, its mostly for rec use only.

SangP
 
Ok,...it's interesting that the Zeagle Ranger is used as a comparison to BP&W.

I've owned and dived (many, many times), both a Zeagle Ranger and a Halcyon Eclipse. There is NO comparison in terms of streamlining and water-resistance. A Hog configuration BP&W is many times more streamlined and has only a tiny amount of water resistance...

Lets have a closer look at the Zeagle Ranger...

It's a well-regarded BCD. Higher-end price bracket. It's often recommended...

4992510003_6cb0691e56_z.jpg


1) Why has the waist belt been designed to tighten on both ends. Congratulations, you've just doubled the amount of floppy, distracting cr@p hanging from the jacket and causing water resistance. Really.... one tightener would have been plenty...

2) Again..why has the chest strap got two tighteners? More superfical clutter for the diver that just has to be perfectly symetrical..

3) What are these things?!? Why are they there? Personally... I would chose to hang Christmas decorations from them... or my poodle trimming shears...

4) Oh.. another random little dangling protusion with no purpose. I will attach a little plastic frog keyring to this one. That'll be fun....

5) Here's a dump valve. It's positioned here, so that you dump air whilst vertical in the event that a shark has your main dump hose in its mouth. Luckily that rarely happens, so it doesn't matter if the dump valve is cluttered up with the unnecessarily complex harness 'swivel' contraption. It's nice that, in the event of a dramatic emergency, they add a little 'gamble factor' by making the emergency shoulder dump harder to locate and operate.

6) Chest strap. Why? Really....why? Why do you need this? I carry a twinset, 4 stages and a big-ass umbilical torch on a plain harness with no chest strap. I've never accidentally 'fallen' out of my BCD yet.... probably because I am weightless underwater. doh!

7) I love this D-Ring direction changing 'thingy' on the harness. That would achieve the triple goals of weakening the harness, making it less comfortable AND adding more weight to the system. Congratulations! Genius!

8) I spotted these two little metal d-rings, hidden away on each side. Are these designed for holding slung stage/pony cylinders? Why are they at the front of the hips? How the hell am I going to access them when the bladder is inflated and completely obstucting them? Maybe they aren't designed for side-slung cylinders....maybe they are just there to look cool...so that I can decorate myself like a christmas tree. nice!

9) Here we have a zipped pocket. There is another on the other side. Neither are much use, as they are tiny and impossible to access. I might just put my car keys in them. And some condoms. And my mobile phone. Isn't that right?

10) Yay! More D-Rings! These would be perfect for a reel.. camera...DSMB. Except for the small fact that everything is going to dangle down and smack you in the balls constantly. YOu could swim horizontally (why would you do that...you have to swim vertical to access your fancy dump valve), but then the dangling gadgets would obstruct the emergency dumps of your integrated weight system. Hmmmm.... Genius 2.0

11) I LOVE this. Another emergency dump valve! Even better.... the string has been extend to the front of the BCD (because it is so bulky and cluttered that they don't expect you to be able to reach a dump valve at the rear!). What I really, truly LOVE about this.... is that they located the dump valve string right next to the silly little string that opens a pocket zip. Just don a thick pair of gloves in cool water and there is no chance that you'd be freaking out and tugging on that zipper string in an emergency...whilst wondering why your weights won't ditch and you're plummeting into the abyss, never to be seen again.

12) You couldn't find this on the picture could you? ha ha. It doesn't need highlighting.... justlook at the amazing parachute shape design of the bladder. Wow... that'd certainly catch a LOT of water. No chance of finning to quickly in this....or chance of reducing your exertion... or chance of reducing your air consumpton. Aaaahhh...such is the price we pay for fashion. You may emerge gasping and tired from the water..at least 20 minutes before anyone else.... but at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that you weren't jumping on the BP&W bandwagon...but you still got to look kinda cool and 'techie'.

There you go.... just a quick appraisal of a 'good' jacket BCD.

Oh... and here's another thing....

poodle-coat-300x278.jpg
 
Reading these threads can be quite entertaining and I can't imagine anyone not getting a good laugh from them.

Just as an example. Does item #1 above where you have a couple of inches of an extra strap really distract from the bc and how in the hell could one ever measure any additional water resistance from it? And even if you could measure something as insignificant as that, would a diver really be able to tell it?

Your "quick appraisal" of a good jacket bc would probably decimate the jacket BC industry if it ever gets out.
 
Just as an example. Does item #1 above where you have a couple of inches of an extra strap really distract from the bc

Item 1... the cleverly designed waist belt.... actually covers the little attachment point they've added for knife attachment and interferes with the weight ditch release next to it.

4993372122_df00f419d6_z.jpg

Can you imagine the design genius of putting a knife there?? AND... then you will notice that it is right next to the emergency integrated weight release.... so that the webbing will be floating on and around release and obstructing it.

Super! Smashing! Great! Wonderful! A waistbelt design that manages to obstruct access to 2.....yes, 2.... items of emergency equipment! :idk:

That's JUST what you'd want when an emergency happens...

how in the hell could one ever measure any additional water resistance from it? And even if you could measure something as insignificant as that, would a diver really be able to tell it?

Probably not. But it does all add up.... and then it really is noticeable!

Your "quick appraisal" of a good jacket bc would probably decimate the jacket BC industry if it ever gets out.

Yep. :D

I honestly think that they play upon novice divers' ignorance... adding clutter to make a BCD 'appear' superior. 'The more the better'...wheras, in truth, the opposite is true.

Oh...here's another thing....

olympic-dog_789068i.jpg
 

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