Jacket inflate vs Back inflate

[SangP]

Although, I don't quite share DevonDiver appraisal of the ranger but I do feel a well designed jacket can do a very credible job, it's only when you need additional gear like double tanks, reels lift bags, lights etc that a jacket starts to show its limitations.

However, for most divers who don't want to fiddle too much with their bcd, a jacket or rear inflate is perfectly acceptable.

SangP

 

[TSandM]

There's been a lot of Jacket vs BP&W threads over the last few years. All of them contained decent factually based arguments for choosing a BP&W . . .

Everyone has the option to dive in whatever gear they want. Those people advocating BP&W on this forum appreciate that. However, nobody should ever be apologetic for raising awareness of options and providing alternative advice.

A newbie diver can think what they want of the BP&W debates. They can choose to dive inwhatever configuration they want and/or like and should not be scorned or criticized for that. The only time they should be called 'idiots' is if they buy something without informed consideration and research of all the options available.

DD, I think this is one of the best posts on this subject that I've ever read.

I got converted to a backplate system by diving one, at which time my back-inflate BC was retired forever, later to be sold. If I had been a smarter diver, I would have looked around me to see what the avid, regular divers in my area were diving . . . and bought a backplate in the first place

 

[master00sniper]

As a new diver, and one who did a lot of research on BCs since posting this thread days ago, I ended up purchasing a jacket inflate, Seaquest Pro XLT secondhand for under 200.

I looked at what everyone was saying, and it does sound like a BP/W BC would definitely be superior. To be honest though, as a newbie I don't wanna have to bother with customizing my own gear. I like the D-rings whether they increase drag in tiny amounts or not. I could have gone for a BI BC, preferably the Seaquest Black Diamond, if one was available for around the same price, but either one was fine by me.

As long as I can obtain and keep horizontal position in the water for most of the time (except when I have to use my dump valve like that one dude pointed out) with relative ease, all other things considered I'd rather sell my BC and buy a BP/W in the future rather than figuring it all out now. I just wanna dive. not configure my equipment for optimum performance.

 

[BDSC]

As a new diver, and one who did a lot of research on BCs since posting this thread days ago, I ended up purchasing a jacket inflate, Seaquest Pro XLT secondhand for under 200.

Looks like you got a good deal on a BC that will serve you quite well and depending on what type of diving you do, may be just fine for years to come. Just don't ever get caught up in the idea that one type of equipment over the other is going to make you a better diver. You will become a better diver by diving, diving, and then diving some more.

 

[master00sniper]

Looks like you got a good deal on a BC that will serve you quite well and depending on what type of diving you do, may be just fine for years to come. Just don't ever get caught up in the idea that one type of equipment over the other is going to make you a better diver. You will become a better diver by diving, diving, and then diving some more.

Thank you sir, I feel the same way. I can't wait to use it this weekend. It should be arriving tomorrow

 

[danvolker]

Let's step back a few posts. No, no, forget that part; let's look "where the skin friction drag" layer "massively attenuates the current."

A vest BC diver would have the highest drag portion, the chest area with straps and poodle bladder, taking advantage of the "massive attenuation" of the current, with just the tank and reg set "up" in the higher flow current.

A BP/W diver has his "sleekest" part, the body and harness, down where the current is least, and his entire floppy bladder seems to be in a much higher current flow area.

This misses one of the big issues....in order to take advantage of skin friction drag, in a large current environment, the diver needs to get their belly as close to the bottom as they can without getting tangled or hooked on the bottom.
As has been very well showcased by Devondiver in his pictures, the Jacket diver will have MANY areas on his stomach side ( ventral side) that are going to be sticking out much more than they should--there will be too many potential areas of these jacket bc's that will get hooked by the ocean bottom the diver is attempting to get very close to. The way the vest BC user will typically have his computer console rigged will hook the bottom, the entanglement issue of the all the mass hanging out near the vest belting---the area you in your own post discuss as the high drag area---this is not irrelevant to big currents just because it is close to the bottom...the vest BC diver has basically dozens of potential "attachment points" that the ocean bottom can easily grab onto, if the vest bc wearer trys to get close enough to the bottom to get his body and as much mass as possible, out of the current.

The cave environment that helped evolve the bp/wing is a perfect representation of how you should try to utilize gear that is designed with more thought and function ---than that which came out of many years of DEMA marketing "intelligence"

For years, the big thinkers of DEMA and the big BC mfg's had evolution of the bc's consisting of changing from black to red, to orange, to yellow, and then some evolved back to black. Very forward thinkers, these guys... Other evolutionary masterpieces were the pockets. They became bigger, and bigger, and as more areas of drag were introduced, the ads pushed the new creations as "more for your money". All this big thinking in diving function, versus a company like Halcyon, that tried to make a bp/wing that could fit EVERYONE perfectly, would last nearly forever, would have the smallest amount of drag possible, and that could be bouyancy optimized for the type of diving you were doing ( warm water-small wing/cold water 7 mil wetsuit larger wing/deep dive you use double with same system you have always dove--just change to a doubles wing, and total familiarity with your bc remains....). Oh yeah...Halcyon also made the rig as slick as possible, with a standard rigging configuration that meant far less chance of entanglement than the traditional DEMA / big mfg BC directions. It was optimized for buddy diving, and it was designed to help divers achieve a perfectly horizontal trim in the water ( versus the big vest BC mfg's who were putting out bc's that when worn by most divers, tended to accentuate the head up and feet down problems of trim common to many divers)...

So, yes, vests have been a great boon to color consious divers ... But as to being "as well thought out" as bp/wing systems, I don't think there is any contest.

None of this means a good diver can not enjoy themself immensely with a vest BC on. It does mean that in challenging conditions, the vest bc is not typically the best choice--if you had a choice.
The diver that began the question, did have a choice. It does not matter than he was new to diving..in 5 years the bp/wing would still be the optimal choice, and he would appreciate it far more then. Now, as he has been sold on a vest, it will likely wear out in 3 years or less, and mastersniper will have a new opportunity to choose a new system again--hopefully he will have tried a bp/wing by then

For DEMA, this is a huge win..why sell a BC system that could be used for life, when you could sell 7 or 8 systems ( each lasting about 30 dives) , and when each one could require some instruction on optimal use...

Regards,
DanV

 

[danvolker]

As a new diver, and one who did a lot of research on BCs since posting this thread days ago, I ended up purchasing a jacket inflate, Seaquest Pro XLT secondhand for under 200.

I looked at what everyone was saying, and it does sound like a BP/W BC would definitely be superior. To be honest though, as a newbie I don't wanna have to bother with customizing my own gear. I like the D-rings whether they increase drag in tiny amounts or not. I could have gone for a BI BC, preferably the Seaquest Black Diamond, if one was available for around the same price, but either one was fine by me.

As long as I can obtain and keep horizontal position in the water for most of the time (except when I have to use my dump valve like that one dude pointed out) with relative ease, all other things considered I'd rather sell my BC and buy a BP/W in the future rather than figuring it all out now. I just wanna dive. not configure my equipment for optimum performance.

Mastersniper,
I expect you will enjoy using your seaquest. Please don't let us rain on your parade.

Just so you know....most diveshops in S Florida that sell Halcyons will rig the bp/wing for you...the Brownies Shops do an awesome job of this, and take pride in it as part of their job.
Anyway, have fun!
Regards,
DanV

 

[BDSC]

For DEMA, this is a huge win..why sell a BC system that could be used for life, when you could sell 7 or 8 systems ( each lasting about 30 dives) , and when each one could require some instruction on optimal use...

Regards,
DanV

30 dives? Are you serious. Do you have any examples of BC's that fall apart after 30 dives or are you saying after 30 dives the diver just gets tired of them and buys something else. I've made over 200 dives on two different BC's and now have probably 50+ on the one I'm using now and the two I currently own look practically brand new. All Scubapro.

Wouldn't any BC you buy be it BP/W, BI, or Jacket style need some sort of instruction on it's use? Wouldn't someone need to show a person how to assemble all the components of a BP/W?

 

[danvolker]

30 dives? Are you serious. Do you have any examples of BC's that fall apart after 30 dives or are you saying after 30 dives the diver just gets tired of them and buys something else. I've made over 200 dives on two different BC's and now have probably 50+ on the one I'm using now and the two I currently own look practically brand new. All Scubapro.

Wouldn't any BC you buy be it BP/W, BI, or Jacket style need some sort of instruction on it's use? Wouldn't someone need to show a person how to assemble all the components of a BP/W?

Here in Florida, there will be many "open water divers" who will dive 10 times or less in a year. Between salt exposure to the mediocre quality BC's ( not high quality bc's, which admittedly Scubapro would represent) , and the heat exposure of sitting in a hot garage, I have seen and heard about many bc's that don't get more than 30 or 40 dives on them, before it is time to buy a new one.
I am sure we could get a thread going about what BC's have not made it to much past 25 to 30 dives. DEMA and several mfg's won't like this, so maybe you should keep this on the "down low"..


As to the assembly of the bp/wing, if you buy it from a good shop, they will do all this for you--just ask. Hell, if I decided to replace the Halcyon 18 pound lift wing and harness I have had since around 1998, with the new latest and greatest, I would probably have the Brownies shop in Riviera fit it to me, and rig it, rather than be bothered with doig this myself. I know how, but if you are buying a new one, why not make the whole thing easy. I don't see why this advice won't work for any new diver...as to instructions, there are the free DIR videos George Irvine did, where he goes through step by step, on how to rig a backplate and wing system..these are free downloads on the Internet, and very easy to follow for the diver who wants to know how to do it, why it is this way, and lots more about DIR gear and how to's.

 

[danvolker]

Let's step back again; back, back to that infamous post where we were helping a less than 24 dives diver decide if he should get a BI BC.

No, no, first I have to say I have never seen someone quote them self in the very next post; and I'm the one who gets called a "blow hard."

Now, back to the Gavin scooter that you use sometimes, that is your scooter, that is appropriate according to the entire DIR and cave community.

How much did that scooter cost and how much did your cave training and DIR training cost. Seems a reasonable argument for a guy wondering if a $250 BI is a good deal.

First, I did not call you a blow hard. That was someone else on the board. I was actually trying to keep this exchange friendly.
....2nd..the Gavin. While it may be pricier than the apollo, it is made for precise handling and for its work horse capabilities. Unlike the apollo, which in the 2nd avi you list actually runs the diver into the bottom ( whoa--potential silt out if in cave , the Gavin is so easy to control precisely you would really have to WANT to hit the bottom in order to hit it....Accidental hit means control is not optimal...at least that was my take from the video......
I do not believe I suggested to the mastersniper that he needed to purchase a scooter of ANY KIND. You brought up scootering, I think as a way of determining drag on a diver--and actually, that is a pretty smart way to compare bc's, hose routing, etc. and the drag they contribute. I was happy to talk scootering, as I do this myself from time to time. I don't think what it cost me is really relevant to this thread.

If we need to discuss my DIR training, and what it cost, you could say it was pretty much free, as I was fortunate to have George Irvine and Bill Mee and Robert Carmichael all as friends and dive buddies, so I was "mentored" into DIR diving ( as George had been mentored by Parker Turner and Sheck Exley), as this was the WKPP way ( prior to the advent of GUE, DIR was taught by mentoring in the WKPP..after years of using DIR, I went on to help popularize DIR on the Internet, via the tech list, cavers, rec.scuba, and the South Florida Dive Journal ( sfdj.com) . We put out massive amounts of free information on the net, we did the DIR Videos, which also got out for free as downloads, or as paid for dvd's....and George and I did plenty of free DIR Demos for groups of people..including dives with them. This was something we did because we believed it would help people, and that it needed to be done.

If mastersniper or any other scubaboard member visited South Florida, I would be very happy to show them the DIR ideas and how they work in an actual dive..here.