Jacket inflate vs Back inflate

[MauiScubaSteve]

However, the TYPICAL new diver with jacket style BC will be swimming head up and feet down....this is pathetic as a byproduct of lazy instruction--trim "should have" been addressed and weighting perfected prior to issuance of c-card. The jacket-style bc is harder to obtain a perfect horizontal trim/swimming position, but it absolutely CAN be accomplished.

Since I have no problem producing new divers that have perfect "head slightly lower than fins" trim/swimming position in an ~24 hour PADI OW course, with my employers Mares vest BC's that I don't think are as well designed as my old SeaQuest vest BC's, I guess I could thank you for the compliment.

Instead, I will point out that there are lots of vest BC's on the market; especially if you include second hand. There are also lots of different body styles and levels of athleticism among the new divers today, and many of those "typical" new divers you see did their check out dives years ago in some quarry with 40 lbs less gut.

For the most part, humans are lazy; that's why we have invented so many "conveniences." I think it is likely the majority of dive instructors are teaching good courses and their students probably dive well on their last check out dive. Divers, being a subset of human's, are lazy for the most part, so many can't be bothered with diving well after they get certified.

Using anecdotal visual evidence of lazy divers as "proof" that all vest BC's are "harder to obtain a perfect horizontal trim/swimming position" is, well, LAZY!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

...and for scootering, I would want a crotch strap and scooter tow ring ( like I have on my Halcyon). If you have a fast scooter ( like the Gavin I sometimes use), you do not want to try to hold yourself with the handles..you want to have the scooter pulling you from the crotch ring, and have the muscles in your arms totally relaxed, and your heart rate down to 60 bpm or lower ( unlikely if your arm muscles are exerting to hold on to a fast scooter). With DIR scootering, your arms have near zero work load, and steering is effortless.

​

Why would I want a crotch strap and tow strap? I am rarely operating a scooter with my hands.

The problem with most of these "beginner wondering" threads is that pretty much half the "reasons" regularly given supporting "moving" to BP/W either have absolutely no factual basis or will not be realized until after many expensive training courses, significant diving experience and thousands of dollars of other specialized dive gear.

A typical recreational diver could do a little research, get a proper sized, well designed vest BC off eBay for ~ $50-$250 and come dive pretty darn BIG ADVENTURE dives with the typical scooters one finds in the popular recreational dive areas.

 

[Brewski]

Master00

Pm me I see your also in the Sacto area. I have a Knighthawk back inflate you can try if you like. that will give you an idea what a Black diamond would be like, and if my buddy doesn't object he may let you try his black diamond. I'll also let you try my backplate so yo can check that out as well. might as well jump into the BCD vs BP/W discussion well informed.

 

[danvolker]

Since I have no problem producing new divers that have perfect "head slightly lower than fins" trim/swimming position in an ~24 hour PADI OW course, with my employers Mares vest BC's that I don't think are as well designed as my old SeaQuest vest BC's, I guess I could thank you for the compliment.

You should take it as a compliment. Any instructor who consistently turns out new divers with good trim and bouyancy skills SHOULD be complimented, and referenced to all the instructors that DO NOT have such commendable results.

Using anecdotal visual evidence of lazy divers as "proof" that all vest BC's are "harder to obtain a perfect horizontal trim/swimming position" is, well, LAZY!

Let's try this instead....if you go out on a boat in south florida that caters to instructors with new openwater divers, you may well see 75% or more with very poor trim and bouyancy, and this certainly includes what is laughably called "advanced divers" as a cert, or nitrox divers....
Maybe it is just Florida, and maybe I am not being fair to Hawaii...Maybe because drift diving "can" be so easy, new Florida divers ( up to maybe a few hundred dives) , may not even think about perfecting the trim issues, untill they get to the point that they want to explore the environments in south florida that actually are extremely advanced--and very exciting. And if you are in South Florida and you see an instructor with new students wearing bp/wings, 75% of the time they WILL be exhibiting reasonably good skills in trim and bouyancy control, at least if compared to their vest wearing counterparts.
Maybe it is just the mindset...the new diver that opts for the bp/wing, is perhaps more likely to be wanting to perfect trim and bouyancy skills, along with propulsion skills and buddy skills. Certainly the enormous body of DIR info that is out on the internet, would promote this as a direction quite different from the "traditional" DEMA based model of EVERYONE CAN DIVE, AND IT IS FINE TO BE SELF INVOLVED ( versus really thinking about your buddy and planning gear and dive behaviors around your buddy)....So maybe what we are really discussing is a cultural issue, much more than it is strictly caused by the gear itself. And this is NOT to say that there are not a great many jacket wearing divers that have perfect buddy skills and perfect trim--it is about looking at ther large group that does not, and trying to figure out what common denominators are significant.

Regards,
DanV

 

[danvolker]

​

Why would I want a crotch strap and tow strap? I am rarely operating a scooter with my hands.

The problem with most of these "beginner wondering" threads is that pretty much half the "reasons" regularly given supporting "moving" to BP/W either have absolutely no factual basis or will not be realized until after many expensive training courses, significant diving experience and thousands of dollars of other specialized dive gear.

A typical recreational diver could do a little research, get a proper sized, well designed vest BC off eBay for ~ $50-$250 and come dive pretty darn BIG ADVENTURE dives with the typical scooters one finds in the popular recreational dive areas.

I don't know...that looks waaayy worse than a wedgie

 

[SangP]

I don't know...that looks waaayy worse than a wedgie

Exactly, that's one of the most awful ways to use a dpv !

I don't care about the argument of how good a jacket is compared to a bp/w but if that's how a dpv can be used with a jacket, it does nothing for the jacket supporters.

SangP

 

[Crush]

Exactly, that's one of the most awful ways to use a dpv !

Based upon what criteria? Are your objections based upon hydrodynamics, aesthetics, or some other criteria? I know nothing about dpv's, but I am curious - why is halemanō's usage so offensive to you?

 

[tbone1004]

no real control over where you're going and what not. Normally scooters are tied to your crotch strap and you're pulled along that way. Access to the throttle as well as trim control with it. That was probably taken as a gag picture

 

[master00sniper]

might as well jump into the BCD vs BP/W discussion well informed.

Oh I never intended on joining the discussion. I'm just reading what you guys have to say about it. It would be suicide I think for me and my massive amount of experience to start giving opinions on Back inflates and BP/Ws when I have never even put one on. I'll just sit back and learn what I can

 

[danvolker]

Based upon what criteria? Are your objections based upon hydrodynamics, aesthetics, or some other criteria? I know nothing about dpv's, but I am curious - why is halemanō's usage so offensive to you?

On one level, you could say the photo shows a jacket bc wearer sporting a large yellow suppository... .

On a more accurate appraisal, if precise control is important, then clearly the tow strap and crotch strap method is going to be used, as virtually the entire caving community would attest. If you are just blowing along far from any surfaces you could impact with, and you would like to shoot photos with your hands, then it could certainly work this way for some people....with my Gavin scooter-which pulls me , I can mount a camera to the scooter body and either shoot by pointing the scooter ( which turns and aims precisely...though with more mass than a camera) , or, I can have the camera quick release on and off in an instant....you can let go of the scooter and allow it to either sink down below your waist, or float upwards, depending on how you weight it-as it is connected to you it won't go anywhere, and can be ignored for the camera shots....

In actual practice, my wife takes the pictures, and I drag her along behind my scooter with her camera when scootering is more optimal than swimming for camera shots. The Gavin pulls a 2nd diver faster than most scooters will pull one diver.

DanV