issues with BP/wings

[Lost Yooper]

Jonnythan,

To supplement the PM I sent you, here's what a harness/wing/BP system has over a typical BC:

Simpler design => fewer things to break => reliability.

Exceptional quality (in the case of Halcyon, anyway) => more durabilty => less likely to break => lasts longer => better investment.

Decreased drag => increased efficiency => better air consumption => more bottom time => more fun.

Adaptability => able to change wings and plates to suit different diving conditions => no relearning of configuration = better long term investment.

Increased comfort => no squeezing around the torso => more fun.

Maintenance => little maintenace required => webbing is cheap and available everywhere => doesn't require a technician to fix => plate will last forever.

Better trim => wings promote better horizontal trim in the water => increased efficiency => better air consumption => more bottom time => more fun.

OK, I'm winded now. So, it would seem to me that any diver would be interested in having a BC that provides the ultimate in efficiency, comfort, adaptability, and exceptional quality in a package that often costs the same or less than other BC's. All of these factors should appeal to most anyone interested in getting the most of out their diving, and their money. If your primary interest is breathing underwater with no regard to any of the above, then gear like TUSA will do.

How's that?

Mike

 

[jonnythan]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
Simpler design => fewer things to break => reliability.

Exceptional quality (in the case of Halcyon, anyway) => more durabilty => less likely to break => lasts longer => better investment.

I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that the quality of my BC is anything less than exceptional, or that the Halcyon wings and backplates are more durable. I will give you the point about the simpler design, but by having one piece of webbing connect your entire rig to your body, a single webbing break could be totally catastrophic for a dive. On my BC, several things would have to break for me to be put in any danger. Two torso straps (torso strap + cumerbund), two independent shoulder straps with a chest strap, two tank straps

Decreased drag => increased efficiency => better air consumption => more bottom time => more fun.

Nonsense. Isn't this the point Pug just essentially conceded with his Shane anecdote?

Adaptability => able to change wings and plates to suit different diving conditions => no relearning of configuration = better long term investment.

I'll give you that, but I just dive local lakes and rivers, and have *no* interest in doing anything more extreme anywhere in the near future, so the point is totally moot in my case.

Increased comfort => no squeezing around the torso => more fun.

Total bunk, there's no reason my BC would squeeze my torso...

Maintenance => little maintenace required => webbing is cheap and available everywhere => doesn't require a technician to fix => plate will last forever.

This is a fairly good one.. doesn't seem to justify the cost difference, and has nothing to do with underwater activities.

Better trim => wings promote better horizontal trim in the water => increased efficiency => better air consumption => more bottom time => more fun.

...How on earth would the Halcyon wings give me better trim?

I think I understand that most of these points are why someone would want the BP/wings setup more than your average jacket style BC with things all over it. My issue is with pug asserting that the BP/wings offer every diver some advantage, and I firmly believe there are lots of divers who stand to benefit nothing from it (for example, me).

I am *trying* to use myself as an example of a person who would gain nothing by having a BP/wings setup to show pug that we do exist, and not everyone needs to spend $550 for a decent cold water setup. Hopefully I've at least begun to show that my Tusa offers all of the benefits BP/wings have over, say, the Mares Synchro Power, while offering me a far lower price and a few extra things (I really enjoy having the quick release shoulder straps, for example).

 

[Lost Yooper]

I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that the quality of my BC is anything less than exceptional, or that the Halcyon wings and backplates are more durable. I will give you the point about the simpler design, but by having one piece of webbing connect your entire rig to your body, a single webbing break could be totally catastrophic for a dive. On my BC, several things would have to break for me to be put in any danger. Two torso straps (torso strap + cumerbund), two independent shoulder straps with a chest strap, two tank straps

Does anyone happen know the breaking point of 2" webbing? How about cheezy plastic quick releases (especially in cold weather)?

I'll give you that, but I just dive local lakes and rivers, and have *no* interest in doing anything more extreme anywhere in the near future, so the point is totally moot in my case.

That's fine, but having options available is always a pleasant convenience and can be easier on your wallet too.

...How on earth would the Halcyon wings give me better trim?

They stabalize you side to side rather than the rollie pollie tendancy of jacket styles BC's. The long wings which curle around a single tank facilitates proper trim unlike the rototiller jacket style BC's out there and provides the greatest amount of efficiency.

There is no doubt in my mind that any diver who has an interest in getting the most out of diving would find a simple BP/wing a far better investment. The hardest part is convincing one's self that they screwed up. This becomes quite apparant as soon as one goes from a jacket style to a harness/wing style. Maybe you'll see for yourself someday.

Good luck to you,

Mike

 

[jonnythan]

I'm not talking about BP/Wings vs jackets. I'm trying to show that there's no significant difference between BP/wings and my Tusa for *me*

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by jonnythan
Pug, you're compeltely avoiding the actual issue. Non sequitur means exactly what I think it means... "Straw Man" also means what I think it means, and you may well do to stop with that type of argument..

BTW welcome to Scuba Board Jon... and the arguments are back there on rec.scuba... we *discuss* thing here

That's so unnecessary. Don't be childish.

Uhhmmm.... *jonnythan* I think you might be looking in a mirror... I not old enough to be childish again....

If a BP/wings setup works better for you, pug, I'm happy for you! However, you seem to believe a BP/wings setup will be better for *me* too.

Acutally I don't know what would work for you... in fact I don't even know who you are... in fact your profile gives very little information... not even a picture...
But I do know what works better since I have tried most of them (type wise)... plates, packs, poodle jackets, tech bcs, ect.

On the other note., I'd really like to see your data on the drag coefficient difference between a diver with a single aluminum 80 on an Imprex Pro/Ranger/Whatever and a diver with steel doubles, an argon bottle, and a 36 lb Halcyon BP/wings setup.

No you wouldn't.... you just want to build a strawman out of apples and oranges...

I can pull out my old textbooks and calculate the Cd for a pair of steel tanks and an argon bottle.

Yup... just as I thought... and now you want to knock it down....
You couldn't begin to figure this one out Jon because you don't understand the concept of how this is put together.

Anyway, earlier in the thread, you said that an argon bottle adds "zero" drag. A canister light has "no drag. zero."
No offense, but..umm... right.

Yup... just like I said... you don't understand the concept of how this is put together... and I could explain it to you... but I think you really don't want to understand so I am not going to bother...

 

[jonnythan]

Come on pug, don't tell me what I want and don't want.

I really want to know why you think the BP/wings setup will be better for ME. That's all.

...Well?

 

[Scubaroo]

Jonnythan - funny you should mention quick release buckles. The quick release buckle on the shoulder strap of another diver's *quality* BC came undone in the middle of a dive last weekend, and caused an amazing amount of grief when he realised both his bouyancy control AND air were about to be lost in one foul swoop. I believe parachutists don't use quick release buckles on their life support either

Try diving your BC without the chest strap buckled... and see how much easier it is to breath without your chest being constricted. I mean a real deep breath, like when you're stressed, and you need air in a hurry (happens to everyone). I never noticed it until an instructor advised me not to do it up on a rental jacket BC I was being instructed in for my original OW cert - when you breath in, your chest expands - the chest strap limits your breathing. So you torso probably is being squeezed, but you haven't had a chance to notice it.

The Halcyon Pioneer system utilises two seperate tank cam straps, not part of the main webbing. I'm not sure from reading your post if you understood that they are seperate from the main webbing, which is usually seatbelt material, incredibly strong stuff, designed to hold you in place in a car accident... unlike plastic quick release buckles.

And you're probably right - the BP/wing system won't offer much more streamlining over a good back inflation BC. But why have half the benefits of a BP/wing when you can have them all

I'm a purely recreational diver by the way.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by jonnythan
Come on pug, don't tell me what I want and don't want.

I really want to know why you think the BP/wings setup will be better for ME. That's all.

...Well?

No.. that's not what you want... this is what you want:

I'm trying to show that there's no significant difference between BP/wings and my Tusa for *me*

Probably hasn't occured to you yet that I wasn't addressing my advice to you in the first place has it Jon.

If you ever do want my advice... ask... it's free...
But worth oh so much more

 

[jonnythan]

I put some info up for ya, pug

 

[jonnythan]

I know your advice is for me to "step up" to BP/wings

I still never follow advice blindly, though I'm trying to get you to give me your argument why I should, but you don't seem willing. I *can* want to demonstrate that BP/wings isn't the end all and be all of buoyancy compensation while trying to hear the flip side of the coin. I'll be happy with my setup in the meantime.

I'm sure my next BC purchase down the road *will* be BP/wings, and I'll let you know how it works out. I'll certainly upgrade from my old Sherwood Brut, get a computer, and a drysuit before that happens, though.

Also in the meantime, I'll be explaining to my dive buddies about the new 5' hose, my removal of the huge console and snorkel, and doing a lot of safety drills so they get the hang of the new hose donation situation

BTW ben, my chest strap and shoulder straps are fairly loose while I dive, just like it is on my hiking pack when backpacking and such.