Is there room for no nonsense training?

[DCBC]

It's a New Year and after 38 years of military/commercial diving, I'm considering making a change by starting up / getting involved in a diving operation someplace warm.

I'd like to specialize in Divemaster / Instructor Training, however I'm not so sure that today's breed of diver would be interested in learning from such an old salt. As some of you who have come to know me are aware, I'm a hard ass when it comes to diver education and I fear that today's Instructor hopefuls will not want to learn as much and be pushed as hard. Obviously it would be an exercise in frustration to be confronted with a "how little can I do to pass attitude." So my question...

How badly does today's up and coming diving leader want to learn? How willing and patient are they to become qualified? Or is certification all that's sought?

If it's anything like OW training, it's only about quick and cheap. What are your views?

 

[Diver0001]

There has to be some middle ground between the blind leading the blind and getting the feeling you're living though an episode of "House", which is what I suspect getting trained by you would feel like.

I personally think there is room for "hard" pushing in training and there is definitely too little of it happening but I think there are a limited number of instructor hopefuls who would would want to, or be able to pay a lot of money to get put through the wringer.

The problem with the market for scuba professionals is

a) It doesn't pay squat so only the "young and naive" or "idealistic and newly single" re-starters still haven't discovered that you get paid 10 times as much for zero training, zero risk and normal working conditions at McDonalds .... that is to say, you'll have trouble finding people who have a lot of money to spend on 'higher quality' unless you can justify that cost with 'more opportunities' to recover that investment, which seems unlikely.

and

b) Many employers in this game don't give a rat's patoot if you're good or not. They want to know which programmes you can teach and how many certs you have.... and any boob can cross cert his friends for a dozen specialties and look better than a well trained consciencious instructor on paper. The good one might not even get the interview..... becuase they just don't care. Employers want the cash flow. Quality is ok as long as it doesn't interfere with sales. You know it works like this.

That said.... I don't think your idea is bad, but you're shooting at the wrong audience.

Who would really benefit from your input would be instructors with a year or two of experience who wanted to take a Master Class from a seasoned pro. In my day job, beginners will line up and pay well for the chance to spend a few hours with a heavy-weight.

Real beginners don't know what they don't know but once they've had a couple of hair raising moments and gotten enough experience to realize that they don't know it all, then they're ripe for someone like you.

R..

 

[tomfcrist]

How badly does today's up and coming diving leader want to learn? How willing and patient are they to become qualified? Or is certification all that's sought?

If it's anything like OW training, it's only about quick and cheap. What are your views?

For the most part people want quick and cheap....its a product of a generation that has been given a free ride compared to what you probably grew up with.

However, there are some that are willing to learn, and dont mind if it takes some time to get where they need to be before being certified as Instructors or DM's. What I have a problem with are Hard ass Course directors, that bring you into a training program, never see you dive or teach and tell you that your not ready. This was a problem for some friends of mine, who were going through a DM program. The structure was like this.......you be my gear gofer, and when you get to the point that you want to walk out and quit, you're Certified........and then "You want to start an ITC?".......Nobody wants to PAY to be someones labor for a year. If the candidate is "Qualified to do the job " Give them the damn rating.

Just my two cents......Not trying to say that you do buisiness that way, just that it happens.

 

[tstormdiver]

I would say it is very much on par with OW instructors teacing OW divers. There are IT/IC/CD/IE's or what ever the title may be, that demand more from their candidates & some that may let the minimum pass. If you want an Instructor Trainer with your views on diving, then I would suggest you start researching & interviewing potential Instructor Trainers. Choose an Instructor Trainer that fits your view. I was fortunate to have a IT/ IC that pushes beyond the minimum. It was a tough course, but I learned a lot from it & also learned a lot about myself in it. Just be aware that in the environment (tropical locales) that you are considering teaching in, there probably won't be much of a demand for that kind of OW training. Most people in those warm climes learning to dive, are on vacation & usually don't have the time or want to put in that time to devote to more intense training. They just want to have enough knowledge & skills to go see the pretty fishes. Sure there are a few that would do it, but I bet that you will find it far & few between. Just my 2 cents also.

 

[DCBC]

...Real beginners don't know what they don't know but once they've had a couple of hair raising moments and gotten enough experience to realize that they don't know it all, then they're ripe for someone like you.

Thanks. For me it's about developing a foundation of knowledge and ability. You can't pass on what you don't have.

A sense of pride about your profession, whether it is in-fact appreciated by the majority or not. I'm sure you feel this in your occupation and have a desire to succeed even if others don't appreciate your intent.

Perhaps this is something that has been lost as the generations pass?

 

[Kingpatzer]

I'd honestly suggest getting ahold of the current PADI standard and reading it.

Sure there will be skills in there that as a commercial/military diver you will think are missing. But perhaps you need to realize the difference between those endeavors and recreational scuba?

Now, read the standards and note where it talks about mastery. An IDC can be as tough as someone wants to make it. But you can only evaluate and score candidates on the standards. But you get to score them. You get to judge if something is fluid. And you can say "oh, you have to do that hovering in mid-water horizontally" if you wish. What you can't do is evaluate on things not in the standard.

My CD is an old military/commercial diver as well. I'm willing to bet he is every bit as experienced as you are. He hasn't sold his soul to the devil. He's just realized that making safe divers is about instilling in them the right respect for the activity and the desire to get better and learn from every dive.

It's not about a lack of pride. It's about there not being a need to be "hard core" in order to be good.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The goal is to pass the Instructor test. Does the instructor candidate get any more points for being (extra) well trained? It is hard to imagine that you can provide all theis extra training for the same price as someone who provides exactly what s needed to allow the instructor to simply pass the evaluation.

Would candidates be willing to pay more when the final outcome (certification as an instructor) would be the same outcome.

 

[Diver0001]

Thanks. For me it's about developing a foundation of knowledge and ability. You can't pass on what you don't have.

I agree. Don't get me wrong. I don't think you're drive for quality is out of place but I think there are some ..... realities ..... that need to be taken into account. For example, quality costs money.

Let's take a parallel. The companies I work for are willing to pay me (or actually, to pay my employer) a lot of money to do my thing for them.

Why? Because I deliver top quality?

No.

Because they expect return on their investment. When they hire me they're solving a problem that they can't solve by themselves and that problem is usually costing them money. They pay a lot but in the end, it pays itself back. They *see* that as quality but it's not. It's a cost effective solution to a problem. Nothing more.

The same thing is true of pro-level certs in diving. If someone pays 2000-3000 dollars to become an instructor and after that can only find volunteer work or work that pays about 20% of minimum wage (the norm where I live) .... or even in the worst case, work that costs them more than they earn (which happens among instructors more than you might think) then it's hard to ask them to pay 10,000 for a cert because the chances that they'll *ever* make enough money to pay it back are slim to none in most cases.

So yeah. Pride is good, but how much are you willing to pay for pride? That's the main issue facing most real-world scuba instructors.

Pride....

Most of them are trying to make enough to break even. The really well paid ones might be able to pay for maintenance on their gear and I'm sure there are a handful who make enough to actually afford to eat out but that's got to be the exception.

My case isn't much different. I've been working as a pro since 2002 and if you include free air as part of my payment then free air accounts for about 60% of what I've "earned" from being a pro. 30% is keyman discounts and the other 10% is cash. I'd literally be better off, fanancially, shaking the oil out of the french fries at McDonalds.

Why do I keep doing it? To give forward. I love the sport.

Given that my case isn't at all unusual, then you have to ask... how much free air do you need to cover an expense of $10,000 to get in the game?

I"m not being cynical, but you live in a different world. Commercial diving isn't like recreational diving and commercial instruction isn't like recreational instruction. Most recreational instructors are treated by their employers as disposable. If you don't increase sales then the next guy will. Why do you think recreational instructors have let themselves get manoeuvred into the position of teaching an OW course with 6 hours in the pool and 4 x 25 minute dives in OW?

Do they do this becasue it makes them happy?

The simple fact is that there are far too many scuba instructors in this world and shops are swimming in options. Instructors are not. Some are so eager to be in the game that they'll say yes to anything..... and THEY set the bar for the rest.

But DESPITE all this. Despite the exploitation and underpayment. Despite the violation of labour laws and despite the pressure to train students in less and less time at higher and higher tempos, many instuctors *do* develop a sense of professionalism. They want to deliver quality. They may even feel that they have some measure of control over what they do. I'll go further. It's a tribute to professionalism that so MANY instructors take pride in their work.

IN fact, from my perspective, someone like you, with a cushy hard-hat job working under government regulation with proper pay for work done should be the LAST one to lecture me, or any rec instructor about "pride". If you had to work under the same conditions, I bet you wouldn't think it's worth it.

It's not a work ethic lost in a generation gap, Wayne. Every instructor out there is doing their best (in their own way). But working for $150 a week when minimum wage is $260 doesn't motivate people. And that's a fact.

I'd say the only instructors out there delivering quality are the ones who are in my position. They have well paying day jobs that cover the expense of being a scuba instructor and they are in the game for one reason only... to give back.

Big difference from teh world you live in, I think.

R..

 

[DBailey]

How badly does today's up and coming diving leader want to learn? How willing and patient are they to become qualified? Or is certification all that's sought?

If it's anything like OW training, it's only about quick and cheap. What are your views?

I read the other posts, and some of the people have touch on my thoughts as well, but here you go...

For the basic OW course, you have to remember that a vast majority of the people (at least that go through my shop), are getting certified for their honeymoon, spring break, family vacation, etc. I doubt most of the people ever dive again, and if they do, I doubt it is more than the once a year trip somewhere warm. This group of people are full of "teach me enough not to kill myself in normal diving circumstance".

As people start to take additional training, they are more open to rigorous/demanding training. My observations are if someone has signed up for Advanced OW alone, then they are usually serious about it. If the person signed up with their wife/husband/BF/GF/life partner/significant other then one of the two usually isn't very serious.

Once you start getting into Rescue Diver, Wreck Diving, Navigation and classes like that, being a hard ass with a demanding course (but within the training standards) is when people can get the most out of the class.

 

[DCBC]

I'd honestly suggest getting ahold of the current PADI standard and reading it. ...It's not about a lack of pride. It's about there not being a need to be "hard core" in order to be good.

King, I was a PADI Instructor for 17 years. I left PADI because I didn't think much of their standard. So reading the PADI standard's not going to enlighten me.

Different Instructor Trainers teach in different ways. Although there may not be a need for hard core as far as some people are concerned, that's not the only thing I'm talking about. You can't teach what you don't know.

Thanks for your comments.