Is there room for no nonsense training?

[Kingpatzer]

Why do you feel the need to get defensive? It's not an "either/or" situation.

DBDC's continuing contention that pretty much anyone instructing for PADI lacks essential skills, pride and fails to provide quality training is insulting to anyone within that organization who is working their rear ends off to provide the best education for their students as they can.

... you ARE aware that there are other agencies besides PADI in the scuba instruction business ???

If I didn't why would I ask what agency is he going to be associated with?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

DBDC's continuing contention that pretty much anyone instructing for PADI lacks essential skills, pride and fails to provide quality training is insulting to anyone within that organization who is working their rear ends off to provide the best education for their students as they can.

If I didn't why would I ask what agency is he going to be associated with?

I didn't see any mention of PADI in his post. In fact, you seem to be the only one in this thread who's trying to turn this into an agency issue.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

I didn't see any mention of PADI in his post. In fact, you seem to be the only one in this thread who's trying to turn this into an agency issue.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

In this thread. I sort of take into his discussion of the utter lack of qualifications, pride and professionalism he sees in instructors within the context of other discussions on this board. And if he isn't posting within that context, then were does his comments point? To the majority of instructors.

That said, I have asked a few times what agency he plans to be running this program for . . .

 

[muddiver]

You could go to work for an outfit like the Commercial Dive Academy in Jacksonville, FL Scuba Diving Careers/Career in scuba diving, Florida scuba diving career instructor training or National University in San Diego/Los Angeles National Polytechnic College of Science • Marine Technology for approx. $30,000/yr

There are a couple of other diver mills out there along the same lines. I have even thought about getting my scuba Instructor certificate and applying at one of these places as a retirement activity.

The other option is to start your own business and teach the way you want to like NWGreatfuldiver said.

Oh, and there is always the college/university route. A number of the local universities use highly experience diving Instructors as their Diveing Safety Officers, and they tend to move around. Check out the Weigely Institute for Envitronmental Studies http://wrigley.usc.edu/msc/index.html

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In this thread. I sort of take into his discussion of the utter lack of qualifications, pride and professionalism he sees in instructors within the context of other discussions on this board. And if he isn't posting within that context, then were does his comments point? To the majority of instructors.

That said, I have asked a few times what agency he plans to be running this program for . . .

You have ... and I'm sure he's noticed. By now it should be obvious to you that Wayne doesn't want this conversation to be about agencies. What I don't understand is why you insist on taking it there.

If you want to defend PADI against some imagined slight, why don't you go start your own thread where people who want to can discuss that topic. I'm fairly sure it's never been discussed on ScubaBoard before ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

You have ... and I'm sure he's noticed. By now it should be obvious to you that Wayne doesn't want this conversation to be about agencies. What I don't understand is why you insist on taking it there.

He wants to know if his highly intense training program would have a customer base. That is going to be dependent in large degree to who his potential customer base is. That is in turn going to be highly determined by the agency.

Someone from GUE is going to be more likely to spend a lot of money on travel and training than is someone from a more recreational focused agency. In part because the GUE mentality is, it seems, more focused on hard core training and in part because it is necessary to do that within GUE due to the lack of local instructors in most areas. So those cultural factors would make him more likely to attract people from that agency.

But if his focus is the "hard core" diving community, that is going to make it all the more difficult to make it an on-going business enterprise due to the shrinking population of divers as the entry qualifications increase.

Further, if the training is going to not be associated with any agency, then the training is going to have a highly limited audience of only those people who do not need further certified training to pursue their diving goals which require education.

So, in my mind, agency matters to how successful it might be.

 

[DCBC]

DBDC's continuing contention that pretty much anyone instructing for PADI lacks essential skills, pride and fails to provide quality training...

Boy King, I didn't realize that you had an axe to grind!

In the past, I've certified recreational instructors through NAUI, IDEA, CMAS and ACUC. Some instructors I've certified have crossed-over to PADI as they see fit. No one I've certified has failed a PADI Instructor assessment.

I'm more interested in passing along diving and instructor skills than I am any one agencies mantra. No one agency is the be all and end all of diving (contrary to some opinions).

In-fact I'd have to say that multiple certifications with different instructor organizations have expanded my knowledge base of the certification industry. The knowledge base of the instructor is what I'm primarily interested in.

I have run several commercial and sport diving enterprises, including a charter service, an LDS and been a national distributor. What I would like to pass on has an industry scope and is not solely restricted to diving instruction; however that's the primary focus at this point.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I'm not doubting your knowledge base. Given some of your postings and comments, I do wonder about your instructional methods, but just because it doesn't sound like it would be for me doesn't mean it wouldn't be great for some one else (or it may be just a limitation of these boards to adequately allow for the kind of full expression one would get in an in-person interaction).

That said (and getting to the point I've been utterly failing to convey it seem) -- being interested in passing on general diving knowledge is a great thing. But without representing an agency, what is the draw for a potential instructor, or for an existing instructor being interested in further training?

Someone interested in opening a dive operation who doesn't have the skills and knowledge to succeed is either going to hire someone who does, or their going to fail -- since they're obviously opening up their business far too early in their own diving development.

Someone interested in an instructor path is almost always going to choose courses that further that path, which means they will not be agency agnostic (except for things like DAN).

Even people who are just interested in "hard core" training external to their agency affiliation are going to likely go with someone who does have some agency affiliation for a variety of reasons.

I just don't see where there's a market in recreational scuba for some one, however well known in the commercial, military or scubaboard world, to offer an agency free course.

At least for me my training and travel dollars are limited. Where I ever in the mood to combine them and travel for training, I'm not likely to choose someone I've never heard of offering training associated with no agency, regardless of what they claim their accreditation are.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am going to relate a story I just heard recently. I don't know a lot of details, so there is a good chance I don't have it all correct. Therefore, I would like to treat it as a hypothetical example even though I think it is pretty much true.

A group of people entered into training for a high level certification under the training of a certain instructor. To do this, they had to go to a dive location outside the country for a week or so of intense training. They had to pay the instructor for his work that week. It was therefor very expensive, and they had to give up vacation time for this period of study.

Not one of them passed.

So, if they want the certification (and they do), they will have to schedule another such week with that instructor, repeating all the time and expense.

I wonder if any of them is thinking along these lines: "Hmmm. Everyone else who does this sort of thing with different agencies and instructors gets done easily in this amount of time, and they seem to be doing OK. I wonder if I made a mistake."

I wonder if people who are considering such training are thinking along these lines: "Hmmm. Everyone else who does this sort of thing with different agencies and instructors gets done easily in this amount of time, and they seem to be doing OK. Maybe I ought to think twice about going in this direction."

I am sure these people will be absolutely outstanding when they are done, but I suspect they would have settled for something a bit short of absolutely outstanding.

I guess my point is that there are indeed people who will pay top dollar for training that far exceeds the norm. The question you need to have answered is this: are there enough of them to pay the bills?

 

[DCBC]

I've never heard of offering training associated with no agency, regardless of what they claim their accreditation are.

I don't know where you got the idea that I wouldn't offer certification through an Agency? I would plan on offering certifications through some or all of the agencies I've mentioned, but as Bob has already stated, I didn't want to make this about agencies.