Is Suunto really that bad

[Lorenzoid]

actually, your logic is severely erred...

a table is even more conservative than, say, a Suunto...

. . .

Tables are the MOST conservative, and sure, you can be more conservative, but you can't be less, for sure. If I do a dive to 52 feet, I calculate that as 60' on my tables, which gives me 55 minutes NDL. That is already a very conservative factor, yet if I want to stay even more conservative, then I don't spend the whole 55 minutes, simple as that.
. . . .

I think you missed my point--maybe I was trying to be too clever. What I was trying to say was only that if you use a table to help you decide how much bottom time you feel is safe, there is no machine with you under water telling you it's time to surface. You are free to use the table data any way you wish. You are always free to add a few extra minutes on to what the table tells you is "safe" if you the diver feel that would be "safe." I'm not suggesting ignoring the black and white numbers on the table; I'm just saying that if someone wants to push the envelope--the way these people who are seeking "liberal computers" seem to want--they could just as well choose to add a few minutes here and there to their dives based on their belief that the tables err on the conservative side, analogous to the way they seem to believe that Suunto "errs" on the conservative side. (That is their whole premise, right?--that Suunto is doing something wrong or less desirable.)

Incidentally, I take issue with accuracy this statement: "All computers use an algorithm that has been tested to be safe." Computers use algorithms that the manufacturers believe are not going to result in unacceptable amounts of harm to unacceptable numbers of people, statistically speaking. No computer or algorithm can guarantee that out of some statistical sample of dives some diver will not experience DCS. "Safe" is a relative term, as I'm sure you appreciate. Nothing can be "tested to be safe." Maybe with your "liberal" Pelagic, one dive out of (I'm making these numbers up, of course) 5,000 statistical dives results in an instance of DCS, while with the "conservative" Suunto one dive out of 10,000 statistical dives results in an instance of DCS. It all depends on who is deciding how much risk is tolerable. The manufacturer decides this at the time the computer is designed. The diver can decide this at the time of buying or using a computer or table.

So I guess this does tie in with my main point that there is a spectrum of "safe" and that "safe" can mean whatever degree of risk a particular diver is willing to tolerate, ranging from diving with an ultra-conservative computer to a moderately conservative computer to an ultra-liberal computer to no computer at all. And by "no computer at all," I mean a diver referring a table and sticking to its numbers only as conservatively or liberally as the diver wishes. Contrary to what you said, I CAN "be less conservative than a table." Nobody seriously advocates this, but it most certainly can be done. I'm sure there are daredevil divers who have added a few minutes here and there to what their tables told them was the "limit."

 

[Lorenzoid]

I used to ride a "slow" motorcycle, at least it was slow compared to some bikes. It was still way quicker than any car I could afford. Similarly, I chose a Suunto knowing it was conservative compared to other brands. I still get more bottom time than I did when I used the tables. . . .

My thinking exactly.

 

[John_B]

I know how to make my Gekko more conservative, but not how to make it less conservative.

You only get that in the more expensive models.

 

[pvcole]

I like my Suuntos (3 Cobras - me, my Wife, and my Daughter); I do not find them too conservative. I had a few Oceanic Pro Plus 2s (total of five - two stolen, two broken, one returned due to trust issues) that did not work out for me. Almost all my buddies use Oceanic computers and love them; one has over 750 dives on their Pro Plus 2. I do not notice a difference between their NDL and mine. I also had a Mares Nemo Air that I liked as a computer but was unable to download it to my PC.

 

[mitsuguy]

I like my Suuntos (3 Cobras - me, my Wife, and my Daughter); I do not find them too conservative. I had a few Oceanic Pro Plus 2s (total of five - two stolen, two broken, one returned due to trust issues) that did not work out for me. Almost all my buddies use Oceanic computers and love them; one has over 750 dives on their Pro Plus 2. I do not notice a difference between their NDL and mine. I also had a Mares Nemo Air that I liked as a computer but was unable to download it to my PC.

its generally not so much on the first dive, but on repetitive dives... we wear each others computers every once in a while around the shop to compare... marked differences, for sure... generally, the first dive is similar, but the second dive can be significant differences...

 

[nwdiver2]

Go for the most conservative computer you feel you need.

 

[kroorda]

I've seen too many Suunto's go bad, and have problems. Without a doubt, they are amongst the most user unfriendly. Some people (Suunto users) might disagree with that. But most of them have never used anything but a Suunto. When it comes to service and support, Suunto is also at the bottom. Oceanic rates amongst the very best when it comes to service.

 

[BoltSnap]

I've seen too many Suunto's go bad, and have problems. Without a doubt, they are amongst the most user unfriendly. Some people (Suunto users) might disagree with that. But most of them have never used anything but a Suunto. When it comes to service and support, Suunto is also at the bottom. Oceanic rates amongst the very best when it comes to service.

My experience with Suunto is the complete opposite of yours. I started using Suunto computers in the early 90's with the Solution. I got to try and use many different brands of dive computers since we sold U.S. Divers, Mares, ScubaPro, Delphi/Phoenix, Cochran, etc. and NO one comes even close in reliability to the Suunto. I never had a problem with any of my Suuntos (I have had the chance to tray many of them over the years). I don't remember any customer bring a Suunto back due to a problem. This is very different from all of the other brands I sold/used (I used many other brands in addition to Suunto). Now, I have 4 different models of Suunto computers and I have had no problem with any of them at all (Cobra, Mosquito, Stinger, D9).

 

[Allison Finch]

Kroorda, are you an Oceanic dealer? Have YOU ever used Suunto, or are you listening to others?

I dive with two Suuntos. I don't like only having one, in case something does happen. BTW, I have never had a malfunction in the over thirteen years I have used Suunto, and I have never seen one go bad. Almost all of my friends and all of my family use Suunto.

I use and old Favor and a Mosquito. The favor does not shut down if you violate safety stops, but my Mosquito does. Knowing this keeps me from cheating. Once, I did violate and the Mosquito shut down. I simply relied on the favor. The Mosquito still logged all of the info, for later use.

I like conservative. Why purposely buy a computer that pushes the limits? There are too many DCS incidents when all profiles are correct to not prefer conservative info, IMHO.

 

[kroorda]

No Allison, I am not an Oceanic dealer. I have been diving for 35 years -before the time when a dive computer was even imagined. Over the years that dive computers have existed, I have both used and experienced all that have been available. (Things have really evolved since day one of the computer!). One of the best, and most intuitive computers ever was one of the first ones and it was made by Tekna. It was intuitive, easy to operate, and provided all the necessary information. Sadly, the company didn't last. I base my opinion about the Suunto computers on real life experience as well as documented reports from other divers who have experienced problems with Suunto's; particularly the Cobra. Without a doubt, and compared to many other computers, they are poorly intuitive, not as easy to program, and, when it comes to service, many Suunto owners' have literally given up on ever seeing their computers again and have been very frustrated. Many Cobra computers also have, and continue to fail. The most common symptom is that the computer will say that they are at 65 feet when they are actually at 5' or even on the boat. As you can imagine, this would create a very serious and even dangerous condition. For instance, if it was stuck on 65', it would not see to fast of an ascent. The 'remaining dive time' would be seriously miscalculated, etc. I have also been on boats and resorts and with people who have simply been trying to change their Nitrox PO2 percentages. If they didn't have their book, or weren't very familiar with the operation of the computer, they simply gave up, kept their computer set on AIR (21%) and dove very conservatively. Whenever a person asks me what makes a good computer, I tell them: 1. Only one or two buttons!, 2. Easy to operate and program, 3. Easy to Read and understand, 4. Easy to change batteries, 5. Reliable, 6. From a company who is very customer service oriented - such as Oceanic.
Hope that helps.
Kent