Is safe second really needed?

[pittyyofool]

A minimalist would not likely have a tank clacker.

N

LOL, so true. those things are such a nuisance.

 

[pittyyofool]

In every recreational activity I've ever been involved in, there are those who adopt alternative styles of doing that activity. And there are always a certain percentage of them who rationalize their decision by trying to convince everyone else that the conventional way is somehow deficient.

Diving ... like every other recreational activity ... is all about having fun. If "your" way helps you have fun, more power to ya. But all this talk about how much better it is ... or how much more "skillful" you have to be ... or how deficient the conventional way is ... reminds me of my grandfather's stories about walking to school "back in the day" ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

geee, so defensive, and offended sounding. I apologize If we offended you and made it seam like we were "pushing" some darn ignorant religion on you. That was not our intent. If we do anything we may encourage you to try different things and find out for yourself what works best for you, and not what someone else told you. (if it happens to be the same so be it.) I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent. But I do believe if one decides to get rid of a piece of gear they must have a skill to replace what that gear was originally intended for, otherwise it is asking for trouble. If you remove the octo be a competent buddy breather, remove the BC, KNOW your bouynsey,etc.
And as several of us have stated we believe that agencies are pumping out divers that in our opinion should not be diving yet due to lack of training. This is in no way the divers fault. So we can not hate them for there lack of needed skill, all we can do is try to encourage one to learn what the agency failed to teach.
At one point in time dive classes taught what was known about diving, and as new stuff came along it was included in the course. This was all aimed at growing knowledge. Then a trend came along of removing skills and training from the curriculum to make it cheaper, quicker, and easier to become a diver. (aimed at reducing knowledge?) It seams that every time I turn around another skill has been dropped from the curriculum and i am afraid this will continue to happen. If an untrained inexperienced diver wants to go diving that is fine, but don't give them a card saying they are competent when they are not.
In hindsight the minimalist relays on many of the basic skills that have been removed from the course curriculum because they are difficult for some to do with out allot of practice. It is not that a new diver can not do the skills, it is that the agency dos not want to spend time teaching them. That is where my BEEF is.

 

[Teamcasa]

...I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent.

I appreciate your sentiment here but based on some of your previous posts, one would think you felt differently.

...But I do believe if one decides to get rid of a piece of gear they must have a skill to replace what that gear was originally intended for, otherwise it is asking for trouble.

I concur.

If you remove the octo be a competent buddy breather, remove the BC, KNOW your bouynsey,etc.

I'm not sure how removing your octo equates to removing you BC?

 

[pittyyofool]

I'm not sure how removing your octo equates to removing you BC?

they are both pieces of gear that divers (including me) were brain washed in to believing we NEED and can not survive with out.

I appreciate your sentiment here but based on some of your previous posts, one would think you felt differently.

my "meanest" comments of this thread.

As of now I personally think an "octo' is a security blanket for the inexperienced or under trained diver.

referring to the training that was received. I am not calling a diver stupid.

Hhahahahahaha LOL. You hit that nail on the head. You are a wise fish and did not fall for the bait, but some others... well they say you never catch the smart fish.

referring to people on the computer not in the water.

So are you saying that there are smarter farm animals than divers? with the lax requirements of some training agencies now days, I might agree.

once again, referring to the training that was received. I am not calling a diver stupid.

At one point in time divers were taught to be self sufficient and not rely on "accessories" to compensate for their incompetencies. I look at some friends getting certified now, and they are required to be thought so little self sufficiency that I will not go diving with them until I put them threw my self sufficiency class in my pool.

once again, referring to the training that was received. I am not calling a diver stupid. The most time that it took someone to complete my class was 2.5 hrs and 3 tanks of air. when i made him do it again it took 15min. no one has ever failed, or given up because there is no pressure and no time limit. I am willing to spend the time where the agencies are not.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

geee, so defensive, and offended sounding. I apologize If we offended you and made it seam like we were "pushing" some darn ignorant religion on you. That was not our intent.

I'm not the least bit offended ... I've been on ScubaBoard long enough to have seen just about every form of troll and every type of ego our Creator ever imagined. You are far from the offensive end of that scale. If anything, I'm rather amused at how "superior" you and some of these other folks can get because of your gear choices.

If we do anything we may encourage you to try different things and find out for yourself what works best for you, and not what someone else told you. (if it happens to be the same so be it.)

I've gone through my own configuration choices and transformations over the years, as have most experienced divers. Just because we don't make the same choices you do doesn't mean we're ignorant ... but rather that we've tried different things and decided on a configuration that works for our diving style and circumstances. "Minimalist" wouldn't be prudent for the dives I like to do.

I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent.

But there are several comments in this thread ... some by you ... that would contradict what you just said. In fact, what's a "gear hauler"?

But I do believe if one decides to get rid of a piece of gear they must have a skill to replace what that gear was originally intended for, otherwise it is asking for trouble. If you remove the octo be a competent buddy breather, remove the BC, KNOW your bouynsey,etc.

What makes you think that competence and gear choices have anything to do with each other?

And as several of us have stated we believe that agencies are pumping out divers that in our opinion should not be diving yet due to lack of training. This is in no way the divers fault. So we can not hate them for there lack of needed skill, all we can do is try to encourage one to learn what the agency failed to teach.

Agencies don't pump out divers ... instructors do. If an instructor decides to use watered-down standards as an excuse to train people poorly, then I'd be faulting the instructor. If an instructor can't put in the effort to train divers properly, then that person chose the wrong vocation.

At one point in time dive classes taught what was known about diving, and as new stuff came along it was included in the course. This was all aimed at growing knowledge. Then a trend came along of removing skills and training from the curriculum to make it cheaper, quicker, and easier to become a diver. (aimed at reducing knowledge?) It seams that every time I turn around another skill has been dropped from the curriculum and i am afraid this will continue to happen. If an untrained inexperienced diver wants to go diving that is fine, but don't give them a card saying they are competent when they are not.

What an interesting notion ... teach everything there is to know about diving in one class. In the past 8-1/2 years I've taken probably 40 classes. On top of that, I've spent hundreds of hours in the water with mentors learning things about diving that no one teaches in a class. If I had to put all that stuff into a single class, I suspect it'd have taken me at least a couple of years to get certified. And that don't even account for all that is known about diving that I haven't even learned yet.

Somehow I don't think that in 1995 ... which by your account is when you initially got certified ... they were putting as much into the basic open water class as you claim they did.

In hindsight the minimalist relays on many of the basic skills that have been removed from the course curriculum because they are difficult for some to do with out allot of practice. It is not that a new diver can not do the skills, it is that the agency dos not want to spend time teaching them. That is where my BEEF is.

What skills would those be?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[pittyyofool]

I'm not the least bit offended ... I've been on ScubaBoard long enough to have seen just about every form of troll and every type of ego our Creator ever imagined. You are far from the offensive end of that scale. If anything, I'm rather amused at how "superior" you and some of these other folks can get because of your gear choices.

ok, maybe. After all we do have the Silver Bullet Superhero as a mascot! Photograph by Nemrod

I've gone through my own configuration choices and transformations over the years, as have most experienced divers. Just because we don't make the same choices you do doesn't mean we're ignorant ... but rather that we've tried different things and decided on a configuration that works for our diving style and circumstances. "Minimalist" wouldn't be prudent for the dives I like to do.

In case you have not been reading all the posts a minimalist adapts their equipment to the situation. Agreed "naked" does not work well for the PacNW. I have dove there, (in the Puget sound) and I was nowhere close to "Naked". I wore 2 pairs of those cute leopard print shorts that Reg Braithwaite pointed out. No really I used a harness and wing, and a farmer john 7mm, a 5ft primary and OMG a alternate second stage! We were diving pilings in allot of surge. different environment = different equipment.

Originally Posted by pittyyofool View Post
I do not, have not, nor will ever look down on someone just because they are a gear hauler when they dive. I Know plenty of divers that are capable of the "minimalist style" that chose not to participate. Just because they have an octo it doesn't mean that they are stupid or incompetent.

But there are several comments in this thread ... some by you ... that would contradict what you just said.

read my previous post...

In fact, what's a "gear hauler"?

one whom takes way, way, way more than the required amount of gear on every dive.

What makes you think that competence and gear choices have anything to do with each other?

Nothing, where did you get that idea? I stated multiple times that I know lots of competent divers that wear all the "Padi police recommended" gear on every dive.

Agencies don't pump out divers ... instructors do. If an instructor decides to use watered-down standards as an excuse to train people poorly, then I'd be faulting the instructor. If an instructor can't put in the effort to train divers properly, then that person chose the wrong vocation.

Ok, so maybe it is the instructors fault, but isn't the agency there to make sure that the instructor is doing his job and following the requirements set fourth by the agency. If the agency is so "watered-down" what is the point of it. An instructor might be better off, to disconnect him self from such an agency and teach on his own terms.

What an interesting notion ... teach everything there is to know about diving in one class. In the past 8-1/2 years I've taken probably 40 classes. On top of that, I've spent hundreds of hours in the water with mentors learning things about diving that no one teaches in a class. If I had to put all that stuff into a single class, I suspect it'd have taken me at least a couple of years to get certified. And that don't even account for all that is known about diving that I haven't even learned yet.

In the 50's when classes were being started there was not much to be known about diving, it was still an adventure sport. As new Knowledge (ex. the NDL table) came along they chose to include it, or save it for a different class (ex. the NDL wheel) that is different than deciding a perfectly good skill that has been included for years is no longer desirable and no longer teach it. (like buddy breathing, what if your octo is jammed with sand or a tear in the diaphragm and will no longer work in an OOA?)

Somehow I don't think that in 1995 ... which by your account is when you initially got certified ... they were putting as much into the basic open water class as you claim they did.

If you read this you would not have asked this question.

pittyyofool: page 14 : At one point in time divers were taught to be self sufficient and not rely on "accessories" to compensate for their incompetencies.
I became a diver 14 years ago, and I feel I was not trained to be self sufficient enough.

What skills would those be?

basic skills: buddy breathing. buoyancy by breathing, not by the elevator jacket. equipment management, removing and putting on all gear in the open water (weight system, bc, fins, undo your buddies tank strap and put it back on). I cant tell you how many loose or incorrectly fastened tank straps I have fixed on people. (buddies and strangers.)

 

[captain]

Those that did not train in the era before the octo and BC have no way of judging what is or is not being taught today versus what was taught in the past. Many have said, and I tend to agree that OW and AOW today is less than equal to the one and only certification (Scuba Diver)available then.

 

[Teamcasa]

<snip> I cant tell you how many loose or incorrectly fastened tank straps I have fixed on people. (buddies and strangers.)

Don't tell these folks that! j/k
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/282649-tampering-other-divers-gear.html

 

[spectrum]

Me neither. Scuba divers are about as streamlined as a cement truck anyway, I doubt the octo adds much more.

I'm sure it adds less than a wing.

As for the original question (sorry I'm late) you probably don't need a safe second but it can make assisting a buddy a lot easier.

Pete

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Those that did not train in the era before the octo and BC have no way of judging what is or is not being taught today versus what was taught in the past. Many have said, and I tend to agree that OW and AOW today is less than equal to the one and only certification (Scuba Diver)available then.

That is probably true ... for the most part. On the other hand, I have met and dived with a few old-timers who could not pass my AOW class. I have no idea what they learned back then, but if it was as great as you say it was, they sure didn't maintain those skills very well.

The mental approach to diving was also apparently pretty different back then. I get the impression they didn't teach much in the way of buddy skills. Without going into the merits and drawbacks of the buddy system, my point is simply that if divers are going to be trained to dive with a buddy, that training should include what it takes to BE a dive buddy. The old-school divers I've dived with seem to be even more clueless in that respect than most of the newer divers I've known.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)