DIR- GUE Is it worth taking Fundamentals this late in the game?
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justinthedeeps
Contributor
You started out this post reasonably, but the way you finished it illustrates exactly what I am saying about the GUE vibe.
Let me repeat myself, kindly:
1. The most important point I made about 80% as a deco gas is that it in some (not all) cases, it can in fact greatly and safely shorten your deco runtime, because at 9 metres you can already switch to a better deco gas than 50%. It is quite simple mate! But you just keep citing GUE principles instead of accepting that as reasonable input.
2. There are in fact non-GUE divers who are as (or more) knowledged and experienced as you, and no less safe than you. I know this is completely impossible for a GUE fundamentalist to accept! And yes I have trained under some of them, fortunately, because I declined to get locked into the GUE-only approach to diving--something strongly inherent under that agency.
There is more to choosing a deco gas than minimizing runtime.
justinthedeeps
Contributor
I've seen the 80% come up in Mod3 dive plans to 100+ metres, which yes I have co-planned and executed safely according to accepted modern parameters (40 L/min OC SAC/SCRs) etc etc under very well qualified instructors and teammates. Give me a bit to come up with an example.
I know I am "asking for it" here by giving some answers to OP that suggest reasons why not to do a Fundamentals course "late in the game." In doing so saying things critical of GUE, which come across as unfair and/or incorrect. Sorry guys--just giving a counterpoint.
I think GUE is a top notch organization, with amazing standards and fantastic divers, who have done wonderful things to improve the quality, thought, reach and safety of advanced diving throughout the world. GUE produces only good divers. Pretty true statement! Cannot say that particular statement about other agencies.
It should be noted that GUE can actually be quite critical of their students, including for very small details. This is done for the sake of improvement. Well, forgive me for being a little critical of some things that I have noticed.
Chief among them is a closed mindedness within narrow views about what is best, a highly condescending assumption that nobody else has any good or better ideas, and a tendency to be strongly exclusive to the point where it sucks up trainees into doing only GUE things, separated and isolated from the rest of the diving world. But this is not an attack on GUE, it is merely a factor when considering which courses to take.
I know I am "asking for it" here by giving some answers to OP that suggest reasons why not to do a Fundamentals course "late in the game." In doing so saying things critical of GUE, which come across as unfair and/or incorrect. Sorry guys--just giving a counterpoint.
I think GUE is a top notch organization, with amazing standards and fantastic divers, who have done wonderful things to improve the quality, thought, reach and safety of advanced diving throughout the world. GUE produces only good divers. Pretty true statement! Cannot say that particular statement about other agencies.
It should be noted that GUE can actually be quite critical of their students, including for very small details. This is done for the sake of improvement. Well, forgive me for being a little critical of some things that I have noticed.
Chief among them is a closed mindedness within narrow views about what is best, a highly condescending assumption that nobody else has any good or better ideas, and a tendency to be strongly exclusive to the point where it sucks up trainees into doing only GUE things, separated and isolated from the rest of the diving world. But this is not an attack on GUE, it is merely a factor when considering which courses to take.
I will put some oil on the fire and will say no, it will not help you further.
Why not? This answer is easy, a fundies course (or intro to tech, or essentials from iantd) will not give you a cert that brings you deeper or further in a cave. And you also have already nitrox, so this is also not new.
If you are a diver that only wants to do courses that bring you deeper, further, till no limits anymore, then this course is not for you.
If you are a really good technical diver with good skills, so I would advice against it too.
But you know yourself best, so you know if you can do the skills the way you can find on youtube or so, and if it is not, maybe this course (or an Essentials or whatever fundieslike course) can maybe help. But again, it will only help if you are open for it and don't have limits in your body. I say this because I know a diver, full trimix CCR who had a problem with his ankles and tried fundies and failed because he could not do a proper frogkick. But he is a good and safe wreckdiver now. He never wanted to dive in caves, so on a wreck, a not completely good frogkick will not hurt.
And this is directly the reason why it maybe is nothing for you. If you are open to it and you know you can improve some things, then maybe it is. But if you are over 60, no ballerina anymore, but you can reach valves etc, you can dive safely on technical dives, then maybe your body is not suitable anymore for the skills required. One of the reasons can be that if you are diving for 20 years, you have some habits, you are older and stiffer and then it very very difficult to learn new habits. Only if you really want you are able to do. And I can say you, in just 4 days you will not finish then with a tech pass. You need to practise and come back. Is this what you want? If the answer is yes, go for it. If the answer is I don't know, then maybe save the money and go on a holiday for the bucks.
1 thing I do not like is that the course is too rigid with the theory part. I am a person that learns theory very easy and hate long days when I can read the stuff in less time than I have to sit there. This is in my opinion a very weak point of the course. Ok, in every course some theory is needed, but please give options for people who prefer learning on their own. This saves time for the student and will not harm the results. It is quite old fashioned nowadays to sit in a class the whole day. So if they introduce self learning/e-learning/etc, then maybe an exam and then 1 hour class for discussions or so, it would be a way much better option.
If you decide you have the money and you want to try fundies as you can learn from it, choose the right instructor. All instructors are human and even with the best instructor, this can be bad for you if personalities won't fit. For me an open instructor would be essential. I also have seen answers like 'this is for the next course', which I really hate. Or 'this is not for this agency'. As in structor you have to deal with students that have already been diving with trimix, solo, etc, you cannot wimple this away. They bring their experience and if you want to make them enthousiastic, an open discussion is very important in my eyes. So this makes maybe not every instructor suitable for every diver. But this is not within 1 agency, it is important for every course you follow. And of course the instructor has to be aware that such discussions will not fill up the whole course.
If you are instructor, then maybe the fundies is a nice course to see how things are teached so you can implement it yourself later while teaching. But this is something that is true for every course from any agency. And this makes that the need to follow it is maybe not really there.
Remember there are courses that are usefull like nitrox, trimix, cave. There are courses that can be usefull, but not for every diver like drysuit, sidemount. And there are courses that are just for fun as you don't learn better diving like biology, zombie diver, etc. I share fundies in the can be usefull. But only you know yourself.
So conclusion: you have to look to yourself. Do you have the money? Do you have the skills already or not? Do you want to practise if you are not ballerina anymore? Do you want to practise if you have already been diving for 20 years and maybe have 'bad' habits? Are you instructor and want to see how things are teached by another agency? Then you can do it.
If you think this course doesn't bring me deeper or further in a cave, I do already have the skills, it is expensive, I don't teach myself, I prefer e-learning and not class days for theory, and I hate practising things, then don't do it.
The course itself will not be bad. It is only the question if it brings you something that is worth the money. And only you can decide. But don't read only the 'yes it is answers', also take a look to reality about your skills etc.
Why not? This answer is easy, a fundies course (or intro to tech, or essentials from iantd) will not give you a cert that brings you deeper or further in a cave. And you also have already nitrox, so this is also not new.
If you are a diver that only wants to do courses that bring you deeper, further, till no limits anymore, then this course is not for you.
If you are a really good technical diver with good skills, so I would advice against it too.
But you know yourself best, so you know if you can do the skills the way you can find on youtube or so, and if it is not, maybe this course (or an Essentials or whatever fundieslike course) can maybe help. But again, it will only help if you are open for it and don't have limits in your body. I say this because I know a diver, full trimix CCR who had a problem with his ankles and tried fundies and failed because he could not do a proper frogkick. But he is a good and safe wreckdiver now. He never wanted to dive in caves, so on a wreck, a not completely good frogkick will not hurt.
And this is directly the reason why it maybe is nothing for you. If you are open to it and you know you can improve some things, then maybe it is. But if you are over 60, no ballerina anymore, but you can reach valves etc, you can dive safely on technical dives, then maybe your body is not suitable anymore for the skills required. One of the reasons can be that if you are diving for 20 years, you have some habits, you are older and stiffer and then it very very difficult to learn new habits. Only if you really want you are able to do. And I can say you, in just 4 days you will not finish then with a tech pass. You need to practise and come back. Is this what you want? If the answer is yes, go for it. If the answer is I don't know, then maybe save the money and go on a holiday for the bucks.
1 thing I do not like is that the course is too rigid with the theory part. I am a person that learns theory very easy and hate long days when I can read the stuff in less time than I have to sit there. This is in my opinion a very weak point of the course. Ok, in every course some theory is needed, but please give options for people who prefer learning on their own. This saves time for the student and will not harm the results. It is quite old fashioned nowadays to sit in a class the whole day. So if they introduce self learning/e-learning/etc, then maybe an exam and then 1 hour class for discussions or so, it would be a way much better option.
If you decide you have the money and you want to try fundies as you can learn from it, choose the right instructor. All instructors are human and even with the best instructor, this can be bad for you if personalities won't fit. For me an open instructor would be essential. I also have seen answers like 'this is for the next course', which I really hate. Or 'this is not for this agency'. As in structor you have to deal with students that have already been diving with trimix, solo, etc, you cannot wimple this away. They bring their experience and if you want to make them enthousiastic, an open discussion is very important in my eyes. So this makes maybe not every instructor suitable for every diver. But this is not within 1 agency, it is important for every course you follow. And of course the instructor has to be aware that such discussions will not fill up the whole course.
If you are instructor, then maybe the fundies is a nice course to see how things are teached so you can implement it yourself later while teaching. But this is something that is true for every course from any agency. And this makes that the need to follow it is maybe not really there.
Remember there are courses that are usefull like nitrox, trimix, cave. There are courses that can be usefull, but not for every diver like drysuit, sidemount. And there are courses that are just for fun as you don't learn better diving like biology, zombie diver, etc. I share fundies in the can be usefull. But only you know yourself.
So conclusion: you have to look to yourself. Do you have the money? Do you have the skills already or not? Do you want to practise if you are not ballerina anymore? Do you want to practise if you have already been diving for 20 years and maybe have 'bad' habits? Are you instructor and want to see how things are teached by another agency? Then you can do it.
If you think this course doesn't bring me deeper or further in a cave, I do already have the skills, it is expensive, I don't teach myself, I prefer e-learning and not class days for theory, and I hate practising things, then don't do it.
The course itself will not be bad. It is only the question if it brings you something that is worth the money. And only you can decide. But don't read only the 'yes it is answers', also take a look to reality about your skills etc.
I don't know the diving scene in the US, and even less your local diving scene, but I'm wondering if you have considered a different perspective on this. Do you think it's possible that GUE divers tend to prioritize GUE diving, and continue with GUE classes, because they enjoy that way of diving more than other ways of diving? And that it gives them the most value for their investment of time, energy and money? Instead of being "brainwashed" or "sucked in", that they just prefer it?
At least for me, I see GUE as a unique opportunity to get very high level instruction of the highest quality and also an invitation to be part of GUE projects and communities. That doesn't mean I can't do other diving with non-GUE divers - it's an added bonus. As I see it, no other agencies can offer anything similar, and being GUE-trained does not exclude me from much of anything, it just gives me more options.
I understand that these GUE projects and communities can seem exclusive, but again it's a product of standardization. If they weren't exclusive to GUE divers, their reason for existing would disappear. And GUE training is open to everyone, so it's only exclusive in that it ensures standardized training and procedures to benefit the projects and communities.
Personally, I love the team mentality and find the GUE dives and training I've taken to be the most fun and challenging, but I dive weekly with a non-GUE club and thoroughly enjoy that too.
I have no clue what deep deco gas is correct for a tech dive in that range. If it'd be a. 21/35 for a 35/25 or both but it doesn't make a huge difference
but O2 is 5 minutes shorter run time than 80%
but O2 is 5 minutes shorter run time than 80%
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