DIR- GUE Is it worth taking Fundamentals this late in the game?

[steinbil]

So what you're saying is to be quite confident in your skills before taking a GUE class?

The general advice, that I tend to agree with, is to take it as early as you can. It's easier to learn something new than to unlearn old habits. GUE Fundamentals teaches you how to train to get better. Or even better if you're uncertified, just start with GUE Rec1 to get your OW cert and get the best possible start to diving.

 

[crofrog]

Another funny one, that is apparently ongoing in the nitrox thread, is some GUE people religiously clinging to the assertion that oxygen is narcotic.

And yet, these same GUE divers are also happy to breathe 100% oxygen at 6 metres / 20 feet, a ppO2 of 1.6--the maximum--with no concerns or experiences of narcosis. This absolutely contradicts the "oxygen is narcotic" claim.

Contrast to a typical TDI, PADI, SSI, IANTD culture where it's like ok here is what we think is a good way to do this, but we aren't acting like God giving the Ten Commandments (that's more of a GUE thing).

What’s funny is the Tech 1 literature spends over 5 full pages of text on the narcotic effect of gases.

It includes both sides of the is o2 narcotic argument and ends with and I’m paraphrasing “If oxygen is indeed narcotic, we’ve accounted for its effects at depth; if it’s not, the worst outcome is experiencing slightly less narcosis than anticipated.”


But yes we’re religiously clinging to it. Lol

 

[justinthedeeps]

What’s funny is the Tech 1 literature spends over 5 full pages of text on the narcotic effect of gases.

It includes both sides of the is o2 narcotic argument and ends with and I’m paraphrasing “If oxygen is indeed narcotic, we’ve accounted for its effects at depth; if it’s not, the worst outcome is experiencing slightly less narcosis than anticipated.”


But yes we’re religiously clinging to it. Lol

I am glad that's true. You definitely don't get that impression from some of the gue fundamentalists though (apparently!)

 

[justinthedeeps]

I'm curious, have you ever taken a GUE class?

I understand that some GUE divers, probably mostly newer fresh out of fundies and especially on the internet, give the impression that they 'know it all' and uncritically follow the holy script of GUE and think all others to be heretics, yadda yadda. I'm not trying to discredit that those divers exist or that some people might have bad experiences with them.

However, my experience is quite different. Almost without fail, the GUE divers I've met are friendly, open minded, non-dogmatic, pragmatic and just fun people to dive with. They're not uptight, judgemental or sticklers for strict procedures. Actually the more experienced they are, and the instructors, seem to be the most open minded, relaxed, knowledgeable and practical.

Yes there are some standards that are upheld, but they are open to discussing them, very clear on why they dive the way they do, and have a lot of experience of serious dives with a rationale for why the standards make their dives easier, more enjoyable and safer.

I dive regularly with both GUE divers and divers from other agencies, and I don't mind, as long as I can trust them and they are competent at the level we dive.

Actually I hear a lot more negative things about GUE, similar to what you describe, from non-GUE divers than I hear negative things about other agencies from GUE divers. So I'm wondering how much is based on actual experiences and how much is just talk...

Of course you are right, and I agree with you.

Yes I did do a Fundamentals some years ago, and it really drilled our skills at backkicking in formation for six hours at a beach as if we were having a seance in some amazing cave system. We got talked into this by a very likeable talented instructor who no doubt saw some opportunity in adding on an agency that offers very compelling business potential. I signed on as a favor to them. It was great to focus on some control work, but we definitely could have also paid them to just help us on that alone, without all the extra Florida brogramming.

Saw how a buddy of mine got sucked into their track, they refused to dive anything but a full sized twinset from then on, even for shallow shore dives, constantly tried to send and recite me GUE propaganda, and completely changed their interest in diving into simply being about their GUE progression. No thanks

 

[crofrog]

I am glad that's true. You definitely don't get that impression from some of the gue fundamentalists though (apparently!)

Fun fact most of the people talking about what GUE does are people like you regurgitating well this one time this one guy said that GUE divers do this thing.

The reality is it’s all very pragmatic and the SOPs and standards are well thought out, insulate us from risk, and provide a basis for there to be a safety culture inside the community.

 

[justinthedeeps]

Fun fact most of the people talking about what GUE does are people like you regurgitating well this one time this one guy said that GUE divers do this thing.

The reality is it’s all very pragmatic and the SOPs and standards are well thought out, insulate us from risk, and provide a basis for their to be a safety culture inside the community.

You are right..

I think I am also right when I say that this is a common response we get when we bring up something for real discussion.

That is, rather than thoughtfully and openly discuss the nuances for something interesting, it's often "we're doing it this way because it's good and that's why we do it"

 

[crofrog]

You are right..

I think I am also right when I say that this is a common response we get when we bring up something for real discussion.

That is, rather than thoughtfully and openly discuss the nuances for something interesting, it's often "we're doing it this way because it's good and that's why we do it"

The people who actually know why, with a few exceptions, don't post on Scubaboard because they're tired of relitigating the same concepts and are actually out-diving. Somehow, Jon Kieren, AJ, and a few others, for I'm assuming some masochistic reason, continue to post here.

You accuse of us being the ones who aren't open-minded, but "I just like diving this way"

 

[PfcAJ]

The people who actually know why, with a few exceptions, don't post on Scubaboard because they're tired of relitigating the same concepts and are actually out-diving. Somehow, Jon Kieren, AJ, and a few others, for I'm assuming some masochistic reason, continue to post here.

You accuse of us being the ones who aren't open-minded, but "I just like diving this way"

I post simply because in my opinion, GUE is the best game in town and because of that, it’s worth debunking the nonsense that’s propagated about it.

There’s no “twin set only” thing either. Single tank diving is rad, and I do it every chance I get.

 

[ofg-1]

I post simply because in my opinion, GUE is the best game in town and because of that, it’s worth debunking the nonsense that’s propagated about it.

Oh come on, just admit it. If you don't say that, JJ will send someone to your house in the middle of the night and shave your cat.

 

[Nick_Radov]

I find it sad that GUE isn't training its divers to be logical and versatile.

This is unfortunately a common misconception among divers who haven't passed any of the higher-level GUE courses and only see superficial bits of secondhand information online. The actual primary training goal is to produce thinking divers. Other topics like the rationale for using standard gasses are secondary. Some of the details might seem illogical at first if you don't understand how the pieces fit together into a complete system. You might want to discuss this in person with an actual GUE tech instructor rather than continuing to labor under such misconceptions.

So again you're making an assumption that --only-- 100% is helpful as first aid. I am not sure that is entirely true.

Anything more than 21% is "helpful" to an extent, but obviously more is better.

But yes it is good to have therapeutic oxygen on board. Any serious dive boat, LOB or centre will have that, in an actual first aid configuration (flow rate control, passive delivery mask, etc)

Some of us do tech dives from shore: no boat or centre. Even when boat diving, it can take some time for the boat crew to recover all the divers. Best to be prepared.

But there are in fact other reasons to consider 80%. Lower CNS.

The "CNS%" formulas are largely BS. We know there is a relationship between oxygen exposure and risk of toxicity symptoms. But if you actually read the primary sources, you'll find that attempts to quantify this are built on a foundation of sand with wild extrapolations from very limited research data. Don't take it too seriously.

Gets you off the 50% sooner.

So what? This is not a goal worth optimizing for. We have plenty of 50%. At some point during the 30ft / 9m stop we're going to switch to back gas anyway to stow the 50% stage reg, rotate the 100% stage forward, and give our lungs a break.

Consumes less 50% in the process.

So what? 50% deco gas is cheap, and we have plenty of it. Any reasonable ocean tech dive that you can do while carrying all of your own gas requires no more than 80ft^3 of 50% (plus other deco gasses). We keep total run time and deco obligation within certain bounds in order to mitigate other risks, like hypothermia from a serious drysuit leak or an unexpected deterioration in surface conditions.
Conversely, if you do really extreme profiles as part of some sort of exploration project then you'll need to have extra 50% on a floating deco station or brought down by support divers or something. In either case, convoluting the deco plan to consume less 50% is utterly pointless.

Same maximum off-gassing gradient for helium as 100% (since they both contain no helium).

So what? The goal is to wash out total inert gas. Whether it's helium or nitrogen makes little difference at that point. The last thing we need is to be taking on more nitrogen during our shallow stops.

I am concerned that you seem to be doing some complex dives while still being unclear on the basics and thus not fully appreciating the risks you're running. Recommend you rethink your protocols based on a more holistic assessment and perhaps pursue additional training. Good luck.