Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?

[minnediver]

If you believe that, I suggest you reread the posts in this thread, as well as a few hundred of the previous pissing matches involving DIR and the rest of the world. Hogarthian is not a rigid system, while DIR is what DIR is...

Yes that is what it appears to be when diving online. DIR is not what most people think it is. Taking the course and talking with someone so close to the beginnings of DIR was very eye opening for me. There are a lot of things said about DIR on line that are inaccurate and just plain wrong. As for what DIR is? I got that answer from the source, not from reading internet posts and pissing matches as you say. If I took what was online as my DIR source then I wouldn't have made the switch. What people need to do is just give it a shot and then make a decision, become accuratly informed and then argue for or against DIR.

 

[lamont]

We all know that the first rule of DIR is "don't dive with unsafe divers". We also know that we don't dive solo.

So...

Given that DM's (or anyone in charge of supervising inexperienced divers) can't get around this...... Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?

R..

Is teaching DIRF incompatible with DIR? I guarantee you that BCS wasn't diving fully DIR kool-aid compliant when I took DIRF from him -- he certainly wasn't looking any of the students as DIR buddies and I think the camera guy was having way too much fun watching us flail around to be a really good DIR buddy for him. He was basically solo diving.

Of course it was in 8-30 fsw of effectively zero current open water. Its not like he was doing this at 250 fsw and 5000 feet back into a cave.

Manage risk, know the consequences and risks of what you're doing, minimize them and know why you're doing it. Without guys like BCS and MHK doing solo dives occasionally there wouldn't be DIRF graduates.

I'm going to throw out something here which will probably blow everyone's minds as well. IMO, even though this is technically solo diving, they're still diving DIR. They're doing a necessary job in the safest way practical and possible. IMO that principle trumps rules like "no solo diving."

forest.

trees.

 

[opiniongirl]

love the avatar..

"how 'bout a nice cup of shut ** up!"

Have the poster.

 

[cornfed]

I think herding large groups of inept divers that probably shouldnt be in the water but are so because they paid their fifty bucks, is a a highly skilled job and should be respected.

This should offend a few people...
I don't think it should be respected. By your own admission these people shouldn't be in the water so what is so respectable about helping them do so?

The alternative is to only dive with skilled hogarthian rigged divers that understand gas management concepts, and you can avoid having to solve basic scuba problems.

No, the alternative is to avoid helping faciliate people making dives they are not prepared for.

When I hear this kind of argument it makes me think that you havent done it cornfed?

Haven't done what? I'm not a DM. Feel free to flame me for criticizing a group I don't understand...

 

[novadiver]

love the avatar..

"how 'bout a nice cup of shut ** up!"

Have the poster.

Opiniongirl, I've just called your therapist and told her about your little set back. better luck in confinement.you really have to stay on the meds if you want the therapy to work . LOL

 

[opiniongirl]

hmmph. maybe then this twitch will go away...wait...

anger...brewing...can't...contain.....DIR...Foxhunts...#of certs vs. experience....

ahhh...relaxing...just a forum....happy kittens....

 

[novadiver]

hmmph. maybe then this twitch will go away...wait...

anger...brewing...can't...contain.....DIR...Foxhunts...#of certs vs. experience....

ahhh...relaxing...just a forum....happy kittens....

Well , I think that if the kittens are still alive , we've made real progress today.

 

[lamont]

love the avatar..

"how 'bout a nice cup of shut ** up!"

Have the poster.

=)

I need to get a coffee cup with that on it for work...

 

[Diver0001]

No, the alternative is to avoid helping faciliate people making dives they are not prepared for.

How does someone with zero experience become prepared? How do they gain experience?

You'll always be able to point to some anecdotal evidence of divers or DM's who went way too far but I would submit that at least for a rank beginner *every* dive has an element of boundary testing and therefore these divers are, by virtue of their inexperience, not prepared for most of the dives they are doing. Being prepared comes much later.

It's too easy to say that you just shouldn't do it. If you were to take this thought to it's logical conclusion then a lot of meaningful learning and most if not all exploring of personal boundaries (and all the good that comes with that) would stagnate.

I want to move this thread along a bit. I'm surprised that so many people responded positively about DM-ing but if you ask me I do not think that the "classic" DM can be DIR. I don't think the two mix because essentially every dive you make with beginners violates rule #1 and is a defacto solo dive.

This leads inevitably to the question that Mr. Mares mentioned in post 49....(paraphrased): How *will* the GUE handle this problem when they start teaching OW?



R..

 

[Charlie99]

This leads inevitably to the question that Mr. Mares mentioned in post 49....(paraphrased): How *will* the GUE handle this problem when they start teaching OW?

Two easy answers:

1. Use the DIR method of dealing with a photographer. Treat him as a dependent buddy and have 2 normal buddies watching over him and each other. Two DIR instructors per OW student ought to be DIR. You can then argue how much you are willing to compromise safety by reducing the instructor student ratio.

2. Mike Ferrara once answered my assertion that he was diving solo when going with students with a reply to the effect that he doesn't go into open water with students until they are fully trained in the pool and are suitable buddies.
You may or may not believe this is feasible, but it is one way of dealing with the problem.