Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?

[Diver0001]

"Whether in a professonal role or not"

I doubt very much that this is the case, How can a instructor be liable for someone else when their on holiday. This is ludicrous in the extreme. I realise you are responsable for students and have to have liabilty insurence. But the quote by WVMike clearly says OR NOT, It makes it sound like all profesionals are responsable for everybody at ALL times. I don't think tht is true!

I know of at least one case of an instructor being sued by teh family of one of his past students when the ex-student died doing something stupid (cave diving without training). You can always be sued, which is what you're insured for. It doesn't necessarily mean you did anything wrong.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

...snip...

That is why the divemaster should follow safe diving practices at all times, unless of course he is diving with a group of his peers.

I'm sure you don't mean that to sound like what you actually said...... You know, Mark, I often agree with things you say but sometimes you just come with some of the...(and I'm saying this with all due respect knowing you can take it and will agree with me once you re-read it...)....the dumbest comments.....

I just can't think of a *single* reason why a DM shouldn't follow safe diving practices .....

R..

 

[Mako Mark]

I'm sure you don't mean that to sound like what you actually said...... You know, Mark, I often agree with things you say but sometimes you just come with some of the...(and I'm saying this with all due respect knowing you can take it and will agree with me once you re-read it...)....the dumbest comments.....

I just can think of a *single* reason why a DM shouldn't follow safe diving practices .....

R..

yeah, maybe that didnt come out too well......

what I meant is when not in the position of being a role model, no duty of care exists.

what he does on his day off while no one can see is of no consequence, he can go solo cave diving with a H.U.B and a Spare Air as far as I am concerned. I wouldnt reccommend it, but nor would I reccommend trying to lick your own elbow.

I think my point was, we know what role model behaviour is and when it should be applied.

But Divemasters and instructors still break safe diving practices when no one is looking. So many new divemasters and Instructors die trying to do the 100 meter lunchtime single tank bounce dive to the bottom of the blue hole in Dahab (and other such lunacy). They know they shouldnt, or they woulndnt do it when no one is looking. They also lay lines for their courses by themselves when one of the greatest dangers of solo diving is entanglement.

Should I lose sleep over people that are intent on eliminating themselves from the gene pool, I dont think so.

Should I worry when they show a lack of professionalism, bad diving skills, or a disregard for safety in front of divers they could have an influence over.........

Yes I should, that is why I started teaching the professional levels of Divemaster and Instructor in the first place. I could stand by and do nothing, or I could try and contribute.

JM2C

 

[WVMike]

"Whether in a professonal role or not"

I doubt very much that this is the case, How can a instructor be liable for someone else when their on holiday. This is ludicrous in the extreme. I realise you are responsable for students and have to have liabilty insurence. But the quote by WVMike clearly says OR NOT, It makes it sound like all profesionals are responsable for everybody at ALL times. I don't think tht is true!

Not exactly my quote, I was paraphrasing what my DIR/F instructor told us. I would be interested to hear what the Attornies on the board have to say about this. One thing that may be different between the US where I live and England is that ours is an extremely litigious society, lawyers will sue and jurys will give outragous monies for the most ludicrous of things at times.

While being part of this discussion an example that could have been a disaster surfaced. Yesterday at the local mud hole several divers where in the water doing surface intervals. There were at least three instructors and two divemasters in the group. A solo diver showed up, not associated with any of us. Tripped and tumbled just getting in the water, we helped him up.

Then he went off to the side and started to make his descent, it was a spectical, there he was floating on the surface putting air in his BC, the dump valve was dumping and he was not sinking, and this went on for quite awhile. Of course we where laughing . Finally one of the instructors went over got his attention and ask if he was ok.

His comment was I don't have enough weight to get down. The instructor asked him if he ever dove before and he said that this was his first fresh water dive, but had been in salt water before and that was why he needed more weight. The instructor then told him what the real problem was. He then let the air out of his BC and sunk like a rock.

Ten minutes or so later he popped up to the surface pretty far out in the lake, mask on forhead but no signal for help. He made it back to the entry area with his tank floating in the water behind just attached by the hoses. One of the divers told him his tank was loose, he turned around and saw it and said OH, thats because this is my new BC I am not used to it, figured I better try it out before I go off the boat. Judging by the way the tank was floating my quess is that it was empty.

He then took all his gear off in the water and started throwing it up to the shore, when asked about this he said my knees are bad I can't carry it. He then drug his tank and BC by the tank valve out of the water and up the path, actually dragging it on the ground.

This could have ended much worse, and I can only imagine his families sharp lawyer having a field day with 3 instructors and two DMs present, even though none knew him or had anything to do with him.

In my hindsight I should have approached him and put all my efforts into not letting him dive, but legally I have no right to do this.

Tuff call, you (meaning any board members) make it, what would you have done?

Mike

 

[scubadoguk]

I expressed had a deleterious effect on the thread except where people jumped to conclusions instead of asking me to clarify something they did not understand. I do, however, acknowledge that my choice of words may have contributed to this.

So should we should mind read or read words are not there?

 

[cornfed]

So should we should mind read or read words are not there?

What you quoted is NOT what I posted. I'm not sure what your point is but please do not quote me out of context.

 

[scubadoguk]

What you quoted is NOT what I posted. I'm not sure what your point is but please do not quote me out of context.

those are your words but now there not.
the point is you are squirming retracing stuff slamming people for reading your words cant blame me quoting you ar reading them as there wrote.

 

[The Kraken]

Out of the verbal battles and back to the post:

"Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?"

No, in my opinion it is not incompatible.
"DM-ing" is a job.
"DIR" is a philosophy and dive style.
Each has its own set of requirements for fulfilling a particular mission or dive.
The question is not unlike asking is the ability to fly an ultralight aircraft incompatible with the ability to fly an F-16.
The diving skills that are required of a dive master are also required within the DIR community.
Now, are the enhanced diving skills of the DIR community required to be a dive master? . . . No, but they don't detract from the duties of a DIR qualified diver performing the functions of a dive master.

Is it obligatory that a DIR certified diver instruct only in the context of the DIR philosophy and hardware configuration? I don't know, but I don't think so.

For my part, I think the diving community, as a whole, would benefit from more dive masters being DIR certified.

 

[cornfed]

those are your words but now there not.
the point is you are squirming retracing stuff slamming people for reading your words cant blame me quoting you ar reading them as there wrote.

Do these two quotes not read differently to you?

I expressed had a deleterious effect on the thread...

And I certainly don't feel that any of the views I expressed had a deleterious effect on the thread...

These two quotes certainly do read differently to me. The former suggests I believe my posts where harmful to the thread while the later clearly states the opposite. Call it squirming if you wish, but I am merely trying to correct what I view as a misrepresentation of my stance.

As for "retracing stuff", I have certainly revisited the same points in an attempt to better clarify my position. I don't feel as though I have changed my position during the course of this thread. The post that you selectively quoted was not only an another attempt to clarify my argument but also an attempt to explain why I came across as arrogant and dogmatic as cancun_mark had accused me.

When using a stereotype in an argument I find it hard to avoid using the associated jargon. And I admit that my choice of words may have hurt the message I was trying to convey. However, I believe that people did not make a good faith effort to understand my position. Instead they took offense to my words "as there wrote [sic]" without trying to see my underlying position.

This is my view of what happened in this thread. If you wanted I could break it down further and provide supporting evidence. I won't, however, because no one really wants to read this crap.

 

[scubadoguk]

those are your words but now there not.
the point is you are squirming retracing stuff slamming people for reading your words cant blame me quoting you for reading them as they were written

I should add that if you write things down and some one does not agree any other party may use the words they want to add to their argument.
To say that any kind of diving is better or worse makes for a poor augment as you should be able to use the best and most expedient method from all types and make it part of your diving, to say this is the only way is showing a lack of understanding of the way a system works.
If you find that the skills used in the DIR system to be usefully on dives and these can be used during a guiding session to be a role model why not use them.
As a DM you also have to look at the bottom line safety is not a compromise area but as in life and work you may lead dives that compromise your own ideals of what skills a diver should have and have to ask if he should be allowed to dive from time to time for the sake of having a job, if you cant work out side the box you may not have a resort job for long.
As for if they are compatible systems only the diver/DM can say what they will do with the skills learned from both systems.
I find that I forget that putting anything here on this board is preaching to the choir, its all said to a bunch of guys who want to argue about things they believe in very strongly but makes no headway outside here its not crap just of limited use.