Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?

[cornfed]

How does someone with zero experience become prepared? How do they gain experience?

You'll always be able to point to some anecdotal evidence of divers or DM's who went way too far but I would submit that at least for a rank beginner *every* dive has an element of boundary testing and therefore these divers are, by virtue of their inexperience, not prepared for most of the dives they are doing. Being prepared comes much later.

I think I DM should help people make dives the could more or less complete on their own. I don't mean you should be able to execute the dive flawlessly or that you should be able to complete it without even the smallest of problems. I mean that any problem you do experience will be an annoyance type problem and not an emergency issue. Something that would be annoying at 30 ft might be a serious problem at 60 or 80 feet. I think a DM should help people figure out where they fit then help them make that dive.

 

[Paul Evans]

Two easy answers:

1. Use the DIR method of dealing with a photographer. Treat him as a dependent buddy and have 2 normal buddies watching over him and each other. Two DIR instructors per OW student ought to be DIR. You can then argue how much you are willing to compromise safety by reducing the instructor student ratio.

2. Mike Ferrara once answered my assertion that he was diving solo when going with students with a reply to the effect that he doesn't go into open water with students until they are fully trained in the pool and are suitable buddies.
You may or may not believe this is feasible, but it is one way of dealing with the problem.

While point 1 is a possible way to go the expence is astonomical it would make the course way to expensive and put most people of, IMHO.

MikeF is not the only one to teach students to a much higher standard before they enter open water, JBD mentioned in a post about teaching bouyancy control in the pool properly and I,am willing to bet Walter has the same high standards before his students enter open water.
Yes there is little doubt that it is feasible but only if the instructor is up to it
The three mentiond above work, Or have worked for three different agencies: PADI NAUI and YMCA, My point is that the quality of instruction is what counts, not the Agency, GUE will have to find a lot of instructors at this high calibre if it is to launch a open water course.

Something else to throw into the mixing pot, DIR was developed out of the WKPP, a group of people doing extreme cave diving. While there is NO DOUBT that the Hog rig and DIR can be used in ALL types of diving, are GUE going to include things like takeing your reg apart under water?? as part of a open water course. My point here is very simple, the vast majority of divers in the world dive rec, on holiday or a little at home, most don,t dive every week in cold, low viz, on wrecks in strong currents etc etc.
This is not to say they don't need better training, but they don't WANT better training, they want enough to see them through :11: It's realy realy sad.......... but IMHO its the truth :11:
I know alot of people who fall into this catargory, the've done OW and AOW think they can go to 40m :06: when the limit is 30m, mention a rescue coarse to them and they look at you is if you've grown two heads........ tell them your going diving this weekend and they think you are certifable.......... Their loss.........

But there are far more of them than there are of us........Bottom line.

 

[WVMike]

You do? Huh. New one on me.

How about this question for DM's who think they are "DIR" - How has DIR improved your DM skills?

I am a DM who is in DIR training, meaning I just took DIR/F, I am returning next weekend for remedial DIR/F, I am in the proper configuration and working on the skill set.

Now that I have seen my weaknesses on the Big Screen and have been introduced to DIR, I have no desire to DM for the shop that trained me. But would be proud to have the opportunity to DM for DIR directed Instructors doing OW or AOW.

The whole Buddy awareness and Team diving approach along with mastering the basic skill set to be able to really "nail it" when needed has to improve DM skillls. The concept of every dive is a Deco dive and there is no such thing as NDLs has improved my safety level and diving awareness, and I am passing all this along to my as of now non-DIR dive buddies.

As to the other part of the original question, I have seen many DMs required to dive solo. For example setting a flag or float or anchor, another is cleaning the silt off of training platforms. This has never seemed right, cause even the agencies that certify DMs teach not to dive Solo.

I have often felt in the past that I was diving Solo on many dives even with others, because of their poor skills, and following the silt cloud left on OW checkouts, heck no one is keeping an eye on the DM.

Sorry about being long winded, DIR has opened my eyes and caused me to rethink and redirect.

Mike

 

[Diver0001]

.... snip ....

Now that I have seen my weaknesses on the Big Screen and have been introduced to DIR, I have no desire to DM for the shop that trained me.

....snip....

This is interesting.....why not?

R..

 

[MASS-Diver]

This is not to say they don't need better training, but they don't WANT better training, they want enough to see them through :11: It's realy realy sad.......... but IMHO its the truth :11:
I know alot of people who fall into this catargory, the've done OW and AOW think they can go to 40m :06: when the limit is 30m, mention a rescue coarse to them and they look at you is if you've grown two heads........ tell them your going diving this weekend and they think you are certifable.......... Their loss.........

But there are far more of them than there are of us........Bottom line.

IME, I don't run into all that many people that aren't interesting in better training, as much as people that don't think they need it. From the 5 times a year vacation divers to the guys I see diving solo with singles in 100' of water in NE, these people always tell me they see themselves as really, really skilled divers - after all that's what their OW/AOW instrucotrs told them. And, in my case, I had a couple hundred dives, my AOW instructor always told me I was right on point - before fundies I had no idea how unskilled I was us.

And in terms of this same old junk, about GUE training 30' reef divers to take apart their regs underwater or sling stages botttles, it's just not the case. The DIR-f is so basic skills wise, I don't see how anyone could be doing any type of diving where they don't need those skills. Just my $.02

 

[Mako Mark]

The concept of every dive is a Deco dive and there is no such thing as NDLs has improved my safety level and diving awareness, and I am passing all this along to my as of now non-DIR dive buddies.
Mike

Good stuff Mike

As to the other part of the original question, I have seen many DMs required to dive solo. For example setting a flag or float or anchor, another is cleaning the silt off of training platforms. This has never seemed right, cause even the agencies that certify DMs teach not to dive Solo.
Mike

I agree with this too, I see instructors do it all the time and there is no excuse, it is just poor role modeling.

 

[minnediver]

I agree with this as well. When I started my DM class and working with students I was often just expected to be out alone. I resolved that this was no way to do things. When I became an instructor I made a few personal rules (thanks in large to the DIR-F). First off I made it mandatory for the students to inspect my gear (single dir config), as I explained the system to them. Then I made sure that my DM and Myself never get in the water with out proper surface checks and then a bubble check at the surface. I also will not allow DM's to go it alone. I will go with them to set floats ect, we just arrive well in advance of the students. During the dives I will arrange the divers side to side in their buddy teams and I will buddy up with the DM. While my DM and I might be 10-15' apart at times I don't feel that this is in anyway a hazard.
As for in water DIR skills, the DIR-F has helped me make huge gains on my skills and they make teaching much less work. I have also found that I use the backwards kick almost as much as a frog kick while teaching. I have lead tours in bad vis doing a backwards kick the whole time - I love it.
It is quite easy to not dive solo while teaching, it just requires a little effort on the part of the INSTRUCTOR and DM. It also helps that I have a regular DM that took the DIR-F the weekend before me and we are both very DIR oriented.

 

[Paul Evans]

IME, I don't run into all that many people that aren't interesting in better training, as much as people that don't think they need it.

I agree completely..... this is what I was getting at but did'nt make it clear, Sorry.

As for taking regs apart........................... I know its not going to happen in a GUE open water coarse. My point is how far will GUE go in making the coarse saleable to Joe Average. Because, wether you like it or not, it all comes down to money!! Sad but true....

the vast majority of divers have never heard of DIR or Scubaboard for that matter and it is likely that will always be the way. So Joe Average has no idea about DIR or poor standards in other organisations so the big orgs go rolling on, again Sad but True....

If GUE want to take these orgs on, they will have to produce a model that servers their prospective customers and produces profit for the company to grow.
It is not easy, and never will be :11:

 

[Mako Mark]

I think I DM should help people make dives the could more or less complete on their own. .

then they wouldnt really need a Dm's help then would they?

I don't mean you should be able to execute the dive flawlessly or that you should be able to complete it without even the smallest of problems.

Sure, nobody is perfect, but what I think we forget, especially when we gain a level of "expertise" in something like diving, what it was like to be a beginner and go through the learning curve.

There is no magic bullet, there is not "instant diver, just add water" packet, it takes time, knowlege and experience. We learn from our mistakes plain and simple. Hopefully our mistakes dont hurt us, and that is why beginners pay a divemaster: To protect them from the mistakes they are going to make that could hurt them.

I think a DM should help people figure out where they fit then help them make that dive.

Yes, and a large part of the diving population should stick to churning around a shallow broken patch of coral reef a couple of times a year, which I think is paret of your point, but not everyone will, can or want to become experts.

I for example suck at carpentry, have no desire to get better, and if the job is much more challenging than banging nails in the wall to hang picture frames from, I will call someone that is better at it than me. You cant be expert at everything.

A Divemaster however is and should be an expert, expertise is part of what defines professionalism and divemasters are professionals as I have pointed out.
In the most simple words I can find, I try to define what is a DM to every DM I teach.

I ask them "A DM's job is basically a dive guide, so what does a DM do?

The answer is: bring them back safe and show them a good time. In that order of importance.

Logistics, safety, local knowlege and customer service!

So, what does a DIR diver do?

My understanding is to try to "elliminate all possible points of failure."

Is this incompatable with being a divemaster, yes I think so, beginner divers are an inherent point of failure, so are not DIR, but we were all beginners once. If we eliminate the beginners then we eliminate ourselves, it is a catch 22.

Cornfed, I was trying to get a rise out of you when I called DIR divers ameteurs and PADI Divemasters professionals, I thought of replying to your PM, but we should keep it in the thread, this has been a very good thread so far, and mostly everyone has behaved themselves..

I also will not allow DM's to go it alone. I will go with them to set floats ect, we just arrive well in advance of the students. During the dives I will arrange the divers side to side in their buddy teams and I will buddy up with the DM.
.

This is how it should be done.

In the event that an instructor does not have a DM, then the lines can be set right there with the students. There is no need to solo dive while teaching

minnediver, it sounds like you have found a comfortable balance with DIR and teaching rec diving. Nice post.

 

[Paul Evans]

just add water.

Hey............. Thats a Mares trademark, you can't mention that in the DIR forum


(Sorry just a lame attempt at humor)

Look.......... the DIR divers need to pass on the baton. As I said, the best place to futher the cause is in the water. the vast majority of people learn better when they can see something for themselves. If they then feel like it exceeds their requirments, so be it, but most will see the beneifits. This will probably be the key to GUE expanding.

I for one would love to see GUE become a mainstream, entrylevel agency...........

.............Think of it, syncronised backward finning

But as I said a couple of posts up, It is not going to be easy.