Soggy:If you don't feel like talking about it, Click Here.
I gave it all the explanation I thought the subject was worth. See post #28.
This will be yet another DIR vs The World thread that will not serve to do anything except take up space.
Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?
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I gave it all the explanation I thought the subject was worth. See post #28.
This will be yet another DIR vs The World thread that will not serve to do anything except take up space.
tbuckalew
Guest
Would you pull a pop-up camper with a John Deer Tractor? Probably Not. How about the tractor portion of an 18-wheeler? A little over the top for most. (extreme examples, but examples none-the-less).
If you're doing a 30ft drift dive, is a dual outlet first stage really required? How about leaving the spool behind? Simple questions, but I've seen DIR divers that won't enter the water unless the equipment is the same all the time every time. Great habit to be in (won't forget things) but not always necessary.
I didn't mean to indicate that "forcing" DIR would be dangerous. However, attempting to force a situation can be dangerous. Attempting to force once gear config on everyone may not be the best thing if those individuals are only rec/sport divers. This doesn't make it dangerous, but as anyone can attest to, newbies have enough problems in the water as it is without worrying about "is this the right BCD as this guy said its not but my instructor said it is". Did anyone say they are? No, don't confuse my statements and read more into them than is there.
What I'm attempting to state is that DIR is not for everyone. Many of us can be safe and experienced divers and have a wonderful and SAFE diving lifestyle doing the fun little dives we like to do. Those who want to pursue diving further can, those who don't, well, don't.
Back to this thread...A DM can be a DIR diver and still be a DM. He may not be following all the DIR techniques and principals when leading a group on that 40' drift dive in a non-overhead environment, but that doesn't make him/her an unsafe diver. He's just adjusting for the situation and circumstances - which is a safe thing to do.
As for another post, being a "reborn" diver...I was a "reborn" diver after around dive number 100 when all the reading I've done from different books from different authors and agencies combined with what I learned from my instructors over the years and hooked up with my experience up to that point and magically, everything "clicked" in my head. Things made sense and common tasks such as trim and bouyancy control became second nature.
To directly address one point I may not have properly covered regarding DIR techniques...well, yes I have. A DM with two buddies is a bit extreme for a 30-40 foot drift dive with a bunch of other divers. Now I didn't say that would be SAFER, but its not neccesarily approprite for the situation. In a deco dive, or cave dive, yes that is definately appriopriate, not not completely in this case. Just a small, real world example.
So, one size does not fit all. I'm not a deco diver, I'm not a cave diver. I'm certified through multiple levels to a point which covers my diving profile. Yes, I could take a DIR-F class focusing solely on the recreational portion of diving and not covering all the technical aspects (this is offered according to GUE) but would I really get much more than I already have? Maybe, maybe not...The prerequisites for DIR-F are the same as I had to do in my OWI class years ago and less strenuous than my Advanced Class (now called Master) the next year. Various kicks to minimize silt disturbance, wll ingrained in me. Emergency procedures for various types of equipment failure, also well taught and heavily practiced. Underwater communications procedures, situational awareness, buddy location and distance...all items well engrained into my head. Bouyancy control.. pretty good, I don't over or under weight myself (and I'm very comfortable in my BC). So, would a DIR-F Rec course teach me some things? Any course might teach me more. Would it make me "better", perhaps - but that is what we call experience and that only comes with time and practice. Is buying $2500 in new gear appropriate for my kind of diving? No. Is it appropriate for others? Yes.
Yes, DIR can work in any environment...but does it always make sense? Think about that shallow drift dive a bit and the original purpose of DIR and tell me that fits all people in all situations...Its like pulling that pop-up camper with a semi.
If you're doing a 30ft drift dive, is a dual outlet first stage really required? How about leaving the spool behind? Simple questions, but I've seen DIR divers that won't enter the water unless the equipment is the same all the time every time. Great habit to be in (won't forget things) but not always necessary.
I didn't mean to indicate that "forcing" DIR would be dangerous. However, attempting to force a situation can be dangerous. Attempting to force once gear config on everyone may not be the best thing if those individuals are only rec/sport divers. This doesn't make it dangerous, but as anyone can attest to, newbies have enough problems in the water as it is without worrying about "is this the right BCD as this guy said its not but my instructor said it is". Did anyone say they are? No, don't confuse my statements and read more into them than is there.
What I'm attempting to state is that DIR is not for everyone. Many of us can be safe and experienced divers and have a wonderful and SAFE diving lifestyle doing the fun little dives we like to do. Those who want to pursue diving further can, those who don't, well, don't.
Back to this thread...A DM can be a DIR diver and still be a DM. He may not be following all the DIR techniques and principals when leading a group on that 40' drift dive in a non-overhead environment, but that doesn't make him/her an unsafe diver. He's just adjusting for the situation and circumstances - which is a safe thing to do.
As for another post, being a "reborn" diver...I was a "reborn" diver after around dive number 100 when all the reading I've done from different books from different authors and agencies combined with what I learned from my instructors over the years and hooked up with my experience up to that point and magically, everything "clicked" in my head. Things made sense and common tasks such as trim and bouyancy control became second nature.
To directly address one point I may not have properly covered regarding DIR techniques...well, yes I have. A DM with two buddies is a bit extreme for a 30-40 foot drift dive with a bunch of other divers. Now I didn't say that would be SAFER, but its not neccesarily approprite for the situation. In a deco dive, or cave dive, yes that is definately appriopriate, not not completely in this case. Just a small, real world example.
So, one size does not fit all. I'm not a deco diver, I'm not a cave diver. I'm certified through multiple levels to a point which covers my diving profile. Yes, I could take a DIR-F class focusing solely on the recreational portion of diving and not covering all the technical aspects (this is offered according to GUE) but would I really get much more than I already have? Maybe, maybe not...The prerequisites for DIR-F are the same as I had to do in my OWI class years ago and less strenuous than my Advanced Class (now called Master) the next year. Various kicks to minimize silt disturbance, wll ingrained in me. Emergency procedures for various types of equipment failure, also well taught and heavily practiced. Underwater communications procedures, situational awareness, buddy location and distance...all items well engrained into my head. Bouyancy control.. pretty good, I don't over or under weight myself (and I'm very comfortable in my BC). So, would a DIR-F Rec course teach me some things? Any course might teach me more. Would it make me "better", perhaps - but that is what we call experience and that only comes with time and practice. Is buying $2500 in new gear appropriate for my kind of diving? No. Is it appropriate for others? Yes.
Yes, DIR can work in any environment...but does it always make sense? Think about that shallow drift dive a bit and the original purpose of DIR and tell me that fits all people in all situations...Its like pulling that pop-up camper with a semi.
MechDiver:
Actually that is what I thought at first as well, was I ever wrong. It was explained to me by AG that it isn't a rigid system at all. In fact it is a persuit of diving excellence. Nothing is black and white in real life and DIR divers know that - it is only the internet that seems to see things as black and white
minnediver:
If you believe that, I suggest you reread the posts in this thread, as well as a few hundred of the previous pissing matches involving DIR and the rest of the world. Hogarthian is not a rigid system, while DIR is what DIR is...
Soggy:
Dont go down that path Soggy. I had over 1000 dives before I saw my first live coconut and I know what it feels like to shake the frost off my wetsuit in the morning.
cornfed:
no offense taken!
cornfed:
I think herding large groups of inept divers that probably shouldnt be in the water but are so because they paid their fifty bucks, is a a highly skilled job and should be respected.
The alternative is to only dive with skilled hogarthian rigged divers that understand gas management concepts, and you can avoid having to solve basic scuba problems.
When I hear this kind of argument it makes me think that you havent done it cornfed?
cornfed:
Which brings us to the first post of the thread, Divemastering is NOT DIR, Divemastering is WAY harder, it requires far more skill to solo dive with groups of inepts, than limit yourself to skilled buddies.
They are different, one group professionals, one group amateurs.
JMHO
WJL
Contributor
I don't buy the analogy between diving DIR and using giant machines to perform small tasks. A DIR rig is based on Hogartian minimalism - bring what you need, leave behind what you don't. A DIR diver wouldn't bring the same stuff to do a 30 foot reef dive in the Carribbean that would be needed to do a 300 foot wreck dive in bad vis cold water. What stays the same is the basic equipment style and layout. The DIR skill set and team concept stays the same in every environment. Why would that be a problem instead of a benefit?tbuckalew:
As you know, a good diver can dive any old equipment and look better and be safer than a bad diver with a bad attitude in the latest and greatest DIR-style equipment. That's just a given. But combining a well-designed standardized basic equipment package with a well-designed and thuroughly practised set of skills makes can make the 30 foot reef dive more fun and enjoyable, not to mention slightly less risky. So why doesn't it make sense?
Last but not least, there is no idea that DIR is for "all people". It's only for those who choose it. Most people will choose against it. There is no DIR mission to get every diver to do things the DIR way.
Soggy
Contributor
MechDiver:
You're right. I was just harrassing you.
Whoa, guys! Cool down and take a deep breath.
In fact, all of the prior posters have made very valid points of what DIR is and isn't -- this very disparity underscores the fact that DIR isn't a single way of doing things. I can't just type out THE 86 elements of DIR and expect to dive that way and be "DIR" all the time. DIR is a concept that embodies attitude, fitness, common sense, and, yes, equipment configuration. This equipment configuration is also NOT written in stone. The "right" way to configure for one type of dive is clearly not the right way to configure for another dive.
The original question, by the way, is "Is it DIR to be a DM, given that you're diving with inexperienced (and perhaps dangerous) divers?" At the risk of setting off another war, the right answer is, "It doesn't matter." DM's are necessary, and there will always be a higher risk for dive professionals trying to train students. The DM's will still dive in the best and safest way possible FOR THE SITUATION, and in that respect, it could still be considered DIR. The principles taught can always be applied. I'll always make mistakes, and I'll always try to learn from them. As I continue not to be perfect, I guess I'll never really achieve Dirdom. It doesn't matter. I'm always trying to do my best.
In fact, all of the prior posters have made very valid points of what DIR is and isn't -- this very disparity underscores the fact that DIR isn't a single way of doing things. I can't just type out THE 86 elements of DIR and expect to dive that way and be "DIR" all the time. DIR is a concept that embodies attitude, fitness, common sense, and, yes, equipment configuration. This equipment configuration is also NOT written in stone. The "right" way to configure for one type of dive is clearly not the right way to configure for another dive.
The original question, by the way, is "Is it DIR to be a DM, given that you're diving with inexperienced (and perhaps dangerous) divers?" At the risk of setting off another war, the right answer is, "It doesn't matter." DM's are necessary, and there will always be a higher risk for dive professionals trying to train students. The DM's will still dive in the best and safest way possible FOR THE SITUATION, and in that respect, it could still be considered DIR. The principles taught can always be applied. I'll always make mistakes, and I'll always try to learn from them. As I continue not to be perfect, I guess I'll never really achieve Dirdom. It doesn't matter. I'm always trying to do my best.
Paul Evans
"Mr Mares"
It will be very intersting to see how GUE handle this problem when-if they launch a basic open water certification.
I think it is very sad that some see this as a problem, if you want people to be exposed to these techniques, configurations and skill levels, then there is no better place than in the water, The internet BS stops there. Then at least people can make a much more informed choice as to wether DIR is for them.
I think it is very sad that some see this as a problem, if you want people to be exposed to these techniques, configurations and skill levels, then there is no better place than in the water, The internet BS stops there. Then at least people can make a much more informed choice as to wether DIR is for them.
Soggy
Contributor
Mr Mares:
True, people that have half a clue can immediately see the difference in skill level underwater. The other half will never get it and will continue to stand on wrecks and kick up silt, often ruining it for the rest of the divers.
EDIT: I didn't mean to say that non-DIR divers all sit on the wreck and kick up silt. I just meant that those who are paying attention will see that there is a difference between a well trimmed diver with good skills and a rototiller.
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