Is DM-ing incompatible with DIR?

[Mako Mark]

If your idea of being a DM is herding cattle in the tropics then I would say tat the two are incompatible. However, if you hold yourself to a higher standard I don't see why the two are incompatible.
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Cornfed, it is that kind of outrageous statement that starts interesting discussions like this to deteriorate into garbage.

Just because the weather is warm in the tropics doesnt mean that it is all daquiris and coconut bread dude.

What is is about warm water that makes it a "lower standard" being a DM under any conditions is a tough job, and the misconception that warm clear water makes it safer is BS. The same as people think there are more monsters at night.

Lots of professional divers fall into that category - there's not much DIR about a surface supplied diver - or a SAR diver - or a military diver. However all of these professionals 'do it right' according to the training for their respective jobs - so the standardization and teamwork is still there - just in a different way. I think DIR or not can only really be applied when someone has the freedom of choice to dive how they choose.

Now this is a quote that makes sence. Divemastering and DIR have different "missions" as do many other types of diving.

 

[Soggy]

What is is about warm water that makes it a "lower standard" being a DM under any conditions is a tough job, and the misconception that warm clear water makes it safer is BS. The same as people think there are more monsters at night.

Well, considering the level of most DMs I've encountered in warm water destinations, it's easy to assume that it must not be that tough a job. I'm sure there are good DMs out there, I just haven't encountered any.

Mark, have you done any cold water (meaning below 50 degrees) diving? All things being equal, a dive in 45 degree water and 10 ft of vis is simply more difficult than the same dive in 80 degree water with 100' of vis.

 

[scubadoguk]

Well, considering the level of most DMs I've encountered in warm water destinations, it's easy to assume that it must not be that tough a job. I'm sure there are good DMs out there, I just haven't encountered any.

Mark, have you done any cold water (meaning below 50 degrees) diving? All things being equal, a dive in 45 degree water and 10 ft of vis is simply more difficult than the same dive in 80 degree water with 100' of vis.

Done lots of both lots! lets not start compareing tallys or did you mean any DM in any warm water situation, or just in your experiance.
Sorry, did you mean the other Mark?

 

[Walter]

If I still missed the point I apologize

No need to apologize, I'll explain. DMs have jobs that require them to dive solo. That doesn't conform to the DIR philosophy. That may or may not be important to you, but was the point of this thread. AIs and DMs acting as AIs do not have jobs requiring solo diving. There's no conflict. People were discussing AI jobs as if they were solo dives, they aren't.

Well, considering the level of most DMs I've encountered in warm water destinations, it's easy to assume that it must not be that tough a job.

Actually, the low skill level of most divers makes the job much more difficult than it would be if OW classes were what they should be. DMs are baby sitting large groups of certified folks who can't dive. That's a difficult job.

 

[tbuckalew]

I think people on both sides are missing the point. From what I've read from GUE and DIR divers so far, DIR is not an all or nothing concept. DIR diving is designed to make technical diving of the type and variety peformed by GUE a much safer activity. The concepts and techniques and training for the more advanced topics would make many divers better due to the additional training and experience.

DIR concepts can be applies to non-technical dives as well as many of the ideas associated with safety in an overhead environment work equally as well in an OW environment. However (even according to GUE), gear and technique should be adjusted to the specific situation. So...if you're leading a bunch of Disney vacationers around, a DIR setup may not be appropriate for the task and the dive would definately not be a DIR dive nor would it require the full range of DIR technique.

The original question about being a DM and DIR really works in the same manner. The average DM dive is not a technical one (notice I said average, nothing is all or nothing). Many DMs simply act as an underwater tour guide and safety diver. So, would full DIR technique and equipment be required for, say, a 40 foot OW drift dive in Cozumel? Personally, I don't think so. If a DIR diver/DM were to perform this dive with a typical BC and not a BP/Wing would it cancel his DIR status? I don't think so.

Unless GUE's statements and information made publicly available are completely wrong, then people on both sides are missing the point and difference between the rec/sport diver and the DIR concepts and training for cave/overhead/exploration/technical diving. DIR is simply a more advanced "specialty" cert for those wishing to use its concepts or be safer divers for the environments GUE trains for.

 

[cornfed]

Cornfed, it is that kind of outrageous statement that starts interesting discussions like this to deteriorate into garbage.

Just because the weather is warm in the tropics doesnt mean that it is all daquiris and coconut bread dude.

What is is about warm water that makes it a "lower standard" being a DM under any conditions is a tough job, and the misconception that warm clear water makes it safer is BS. The same as people think there are more monsters at night.

You completely missed my point. It has nothing to do with misconception that warm water implies wussy and cold water implies macho that is often propagated here.

Do you not agree that there are certain destinations and operations that cater to people that only dive once or twice every year or so? Operations who cater to people who expect to have their gear set up for them and people who want to have someone else plan the dive for them? I'm sorry if it offends you or if you feel this is destroying the discussion but I feel that DMs working in this capacity aren't realizing their full potential.

PADI claims that, "PADI Divemaster training develops your leadership abilities by training you to supervise dive activities". Similarly, NAUI states that their DM "program is designed to train experienced and knowledgeable divers to organize and conduct enjoyable open water dives for certified divers." Both of these seem to be very worthwhile goals. However what constitutes "organizing and conducting enjoyable dives" is a very broad spectrum. You can, as Walter, said "baby sit large groups of certified folks who can't dive" which is what I meant when I said "herding cattle". Alternatively you can cater to people that don't need hand holding. Both would qualify as helping people enjoy their dive, but I consider doing the later to be holding yourself to a higher standard.

 

[Soggy]

I think people on both sides are missing the point. From what I've read from GUE and DIR divers so far, DIR is not an all or nothing concept. DIR diving is designed to make technical diving of the type and variety peformed by GUE a much safer activity. The concepts and techniques and training for the more advanced topics would make many divers better due to the additional training and experience.

No, DIR diving is about making all non-commercial/non-military diving safer and more fun. While GUE does offer technical training, the DIRF class is all about skills you should have gotten when you did your OW class, but likely didn't. The triox class is like an advanced/deep class that adds Helium into your box of tricks. Many GUE trained divers will never venture into technical or cave diving.

Being DIR is, in fact, an all-or-nothing type of thing, if you want to stick a label on yourself. It is a *system* that encompasses standardized skills, teamwork, equipment, gasses, and procedures. While you can take bits and pieces of it and apply it to your own diving, the whole system works best as a whole.

 

[tbuckalew]

No, DIR diving is about making all non-commercial/non-military diving safer and more fun. While GUE does offer technical training, the DIRF class is all about skills you should have gotten when you did your OW class, but likely didn't. The triox class is like an advanced/deep class that adds Helium into your box of tricks. Many GUE trained divers will never venture into technical or cave diving.

As stated, the DIRF class teaches (according to GUE) the fundamentals required before advancing to their other classes. And, as I said, it would make anyone a better diver. But DIR techniques are not always approprite for all diving situations. One size does not fit all and trying to force it is dangerous in and of itself.

 

[Soggy]

As stated, the DIRF class teaches (according to GUE) the fundamentals required before advancing to their other classes. And, as I said, it would make anyone a better diver. But DIR techniques are not always approprite for all diving situations. One size does not fit all and trying to force it is dangerous in and of itself.

Think of DIRF as being reborn an OW student. After taking it, almost everyone I know has realized that their skills were not up to par for even simple failures on simple dives in 20' of water. DIRF, while originally conceived as a way to keep people without good skills out of the Tech 1/Cave 1 classes, is now it's own entity and is entirely based in recreational/non-technical diving.

IMO, DIR *can* work in any non-commercial/military environment. Is it *practical* for a DM to dive DIR? Probably not in most places, but there are plenty of shops that do it that way. Nothing prevents someone from using DIR procedures and equipment while DMing, except for shops that can't see safety benefits over their own pocketbook.

 

[WJL]

But DIR techniques are not always approprite for all diving situations. One size does not fit all and trying to force it is dangerous in and of itself.

I'm ready for another lap or two around the track.

What "DIR techniques" are inappropriate in what "diving situation"?

What about DIR is "one size fits all" and how is this "dangerous"?