Interacting with sea life look but don't touch!

[Ting Tong]

It is nothing like.. say . Slapping a large hunk of processed cow skin on a horse's back and then strapping it down so it won't slide off and then sliding a metal rod into the mouth and tieing it back with a few ropes (or slices of cow skin) and then climbing on top of the animal and kicking it in the ribs, Riding horses is a wonderful, dignified and beautiful means to interact with a large grazing animal.

So you don't understand the difference between domesticated and wild?

Let me help you with that. List of domesticated animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don"t see turtles on the list. Ha! Cant believe everything on the internet!

 

[Allison Finch]

View attachment 203585

I was wondering if I was the ONLY one who caught the irony of that post. I am glad I was not!!

---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 11:05 AM ----------

Somehow, I don't think my "grazing animal" looks upset OR harassed. In fact, he looks like he is having as much fun as I am. He was known to jump those jumps all by himself when he was turned out in that ring.



DD, your comment was apples and oranges. Domestic trained partners are very different than wild animals. If I were to grab a wild horse, force it to do this, untrained, it would be abusive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

When I first started diving in the late 60's I used to chop up sea urchins with my big dive knife to feed the fish. I thought nothing of it because everyone did it. I never ONCE heard anyone say that this shouldn't be done.

Now I know how crucial the sea urchin is to the balance of reef life. It would never occur to me to do that and I will speak up quickly if I saw anyone do that.

Why? because I had to LEARN that this was a bad thing to do. Taking people to task will, hopefully, help them learn not to do this harassment. If not, a little humiliation might.....

Different strokes and all ... around here, since the wasting disease wiped out our entire sea star population, the green urchins are taking over ... there's literally carpets of them in places where they were rarely ever seen before. Most folks would take it as a kindness if someone would chop them up and feed them to the fish ... or to humans, for that matter.

I wonder how the folks in the Caribbean feel about divers "molesting" the lionfish ....

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 09:39 AM ----------

Somehow, I don't think my "grazing animal" looks upset OR harassed. In fact, he looks like he is having as much fun as I am. He was known to jump those jumps all by himself when he was turned out in that ring.



DD, your comment was apples and oranges. Domestic trained partners are very different than wild animals. If I were to grab a wild horse, force it to do this, untrained, it would be abusive.

Looking good there, Allison ... FWIW, Sea World considers their dolphins and orcas to be domesticated ... and they are certainly trained ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Seems folks want it both ways - as long as it is their way...

Do as you please to domesticated animals - especially if it is mine or I paid for the right to treat it anyway I want since I will determine what is right or wrong. However - on the flip side - if I determine something is abusive you better listen up... Oh the Irony... Apples and Apples...

 

[Allison Finch]

Different strokes and all ... around here, since the wasting disease wiped out our entire sea star population, the green urchins are taking over ... there's literally carpets of them in places where they were rarely ever seen before. Most folks would take it as a kindness if someone would chop them up and feed them to the fish ... or to humans, for that matter.

Yes, that disease is horrific and has affected the whole chain there. I would guess that some human intervention might help on a microscopic level.

I wonder how the folks in the Caribbean feel about divers "molesting" the lionfish ....

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It's a very different matter when you are dealing with an invasive species. All bets are off there. The same with game fish, if taken on a sustainable level. I am not adverse to spearing a nice snapper, or two. But, when a species is driven to scarcity, like hog snappers in some areas, this behavior needs to be modified.

---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 09:39 AM ----------

Looking good there, Allison ... FWIW, Sea World considers their dolphins and orcas to be domesticated ... and they are certainly trained ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

BS!

Those animals are captured in the wild and few are born in captivity, though a few are. My 'grazing animal" is the product of hundreds of years of careful breeding for temperament and athletic ability. I doubt it would survive for long on the steppes.....

---------- Post added February 24th, 2015 at 12:52 PM ----------

Seems folks want it both ways - as long as it is their way...

Do as you please to domesticated animals - especially if it is mine or I paid for the right to treat it anyway I want since I will determine what is right or wrong. However - on the flip side - if I determine something is abusive you better listen up... Oh the Irony... Apples and Apples...

So, you are telling me that because I have a pet cat, you are justified in harassing and destroying wild animals on your dive? What warped reasoning....

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

So, you are telling me that because I have a pet cat, you are justified in harassing and destroying wild animals on your dive? What warped reasoning....

Nope what I am saying is you are playing the "Almighty Anointed One" - and I did not get to vote vote on your divine appointment. You are determining what is cruel and are ready to dish out the justified punishment based on your preconceived notion of what is morally right in your mind. Get off the high horse and play nice with others....

 

[TMHeimer]

Seems folks want it both ways - as long as it is their way...

Do as you please to domesticated animals - especially if it is mine or I paid for the right to treat it anyway I want since I will determine what is right or wrong. However - on the flip side - if I determine something is abusive you better listen up... Oh the Irony... Apples and Apples...

I tend to agree with you here. Besides, there are rare places left where horses are still wild (I can think of one in Canada and one in the U.S. at least).

Bob (Grateful) makes a good point too. Makes me think we are talking about two different things here as well. Real ecological problems vs. it's just "not right" to ride a turtle. That would be apples & oranges.

 

[TSandM]

Whether we like it or not, our presence underwater has effects. When we shine lights on animals, it's almost certainly stressful. If we touch them, it's almost certainly stressful in most cases. How much stress? I don't have a clue. How much effect? I don't know the answer to that, either. Making these moral decisions is not clear-cut, and I am reminded of a series of articles on philosophy that have appeared in Quest magazine. One made a big impression on me, which was our tendency to measure the importance of animals by how much we like them. We get angry at abuse of cats and dogs because we like and value them, but poisoning slugs doesn't bother most of us a bit. Underwater, we value turtles and dolphins and mantas, and think far less about sea urchins or cucumbers, or in my case, crabs, which I have both caught for food (which I don't disapprove of) and have also picked up to show to people, which is probably more dubious.

I get perturbed by diver behavior that elicits clear signs of stress from an animal. If an octopus or squid has inked at you, it is not happy, and in that case, I do not follow them further or take more photographs. I loathe guides who poke sticks in holes to get animals to leave their hiding places -- not only is that undoubtedly stressful, but it may present a very clear risk to the animal in question. I am guilty, however, of providing a light which allows predators like seals and ling cod to spot and catch their prey; accessory to murder, if you look at it that way.

People vary in their degree of empathy. Empathy allows us to imagine the fear or anxiety an animal might feel as a result of our actions. It's easier to do that with large vertebrates, and much harder to imagine the state of mind of nudibranch which has been picked up and tossed into the water column for a photograph. Each of us will draw a line that seems good to us. Bludgeoning people with one's own opinions rarely changes them, but sometimes introducing the concept of empathy can help someone think about something in a slightly different way.

And BTW, Allison, nice form! A straighter line from the elbow to the bit and you could give Steinkraus a run for his money

 

[Allison Finch]

Nope what I am saying is you are playing the "Almighty Anointed One" -

No, this thread ASKED for an opinion, and I gave mine. That's all. If you don't like it, that is YOUR problem. Being rude does not make your opinion any better.

and I did not get to vote vote on your divine appointment.

Nor were you asked to.

You are determining what is cruel and are ready to dish out the justified punishment based on your preconceived notion of what is morally right in your mind. Get off the high horse and play nice with others....

Determining what is cruel? Again, just saying that annoying and harassing animals is wrong IMO (or did you miss that?). And exactly what "punishment" dod I ordain as necessary?

As for your last sentence, DITTO!

I sure as heck don't know why your drawers are in such a twist.

 

[mikeycanuk]

Someone better tell those groupers on Cayman Brac to leave the divers alone!