Instructor Requirements- continued...

[TCDiver1]

And as nice as these people can be, probably 90% of them won't be around in 2-3 years. Some don't realize how much hard physical work they're in for how little pay, some have personal problems that they're running away from, others are rudderless drifters. Its not surprising how many of them end up with drinking problems, and its not rocket science that half of their "money problems" are thusly self-inflicted.
-hh

You have just described about every potential job situation i'm aware of. I don't see any of this to be exclusive, only to dive professionals.

So i fail to see what your getting at unless your trying to say problems like this can and do happen, to anyone, in any profession. In which case i don't see your point.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I hear your complaint but what have you done, not a second hand report but actually done to help the situation or is this more simple shouting and no actual action?

It's not like you get to vote on it or something. Most of the agencies are private or semi-privately held companies and none of us have any more say in how they are run than we do in the local department store.

You spend your money with them or you don't and you pass on your opinions about the services you were provided or the treatment you recieved as a pro...ie...word of mouth advertising to either recommend them or warn other away from them and that's about all you can do.

 

[Seuss]

An interesting thread. I am a poster child for the instructor without experience (kinda). I got certified through PADI as an open water diver last March, about nine months ago. I will be finishing up the intern on my PADI divemaster this weekend (I hope... briefing and tour and I am done!). Diving is a hobby for me, not a profession, so all of my 100+odd dives (except for a handful of night dives) have been done on the weekends. (Averages out to something like four dives per weekend between then and now.)

However, I have a lot of experience teaching people how to swim. I have been certified as a water safty instructor, a lifeguard instructor, and as a lifeguard instructor trainer. I have been teaching swimming and lifeguarding, again as a hobby, for the last 15 years. I also worked as a teaching assistant for five years before I got certified as a WSI.

As I have gone through the PADI courses, I have been careful to observe the teaching style and methodology used. It is amazing how differently instructors can teach, even when they are associated with the same dive shop.

There seems to be two sides to teaching: knowing how to teach and knowing what to teach. Although one can be taught both how to teach and what to teach, experience and disire of teaching is what differentiates the average instructor from the great instructor.

I have seen some great divers with 1000's of logged dives, that couldn't teach their way out of a paper sack. There is a big difference between having experience and being able to teach. We all learn differently and if an instructor is unable to bend their teaching style to match a student needs, then all of the experience in the world is meaningless.

When we speak of experience, we really need to look at both diving experience and teaching experience.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have seen some great divers with 1000's of logged dives, that couldn't teach their way out of a paper sack. There is a big difference between having experience and being able to teach. We all learn differently and if an instructor is unable to bend their teaching style to match a student needs, then all of the experience in the world is meaningless.

When we speak of experience, we really need to look at both diving experience and teaching experience.

True enough, not all good divers are good teachers. However, all good instructors are good divers though. I don't believe you can be taught enough about what to teach or how to teach it to make you a good instructor. I'm speaking as some one who also went through the PADI system and became a DM and instructor quickly and there isn't any way for me to adequately describe how big of a mistake I think it is regardless of what PADI says.

This isn't like teching the piano where if the student sucks people just leave the room no worse for the ware. This is diving and if you don't know what you're doing, you and/or a student and/or one of their future dive buddies may very well end up the subject of one of our discussions in the accident forum. Not to scare you or anything but I don't think a person can even know if they really want to teach diving or not untill they've performed a rescue or two because if you teach long enough (if you're not good it might not even take long) it's liable to happen and it just might be because of something you missed or a decision you made or because you believed something some agency told you that just isn't true.

 

[scubadoguk]

It's not like you get to vote on it or something. Most of the agencies are private or semi-privately held companies and none of us have any more say in how they are run than we do in the local department store.

You spend your money with them or you don't and you pass on your opinions about the services you were provided or the treatment you recieved as a pro...ie...word of mouth advertising to either recommend them or warn other away from them and that's about all you can do.

So what we have is a broken system, from what I hear we sell our skills too cheap and not only that the very people who do, are worse than scum or did I miss your points and those of HH
As a Indiana instructor I would love to be making more money or owning a store so I could dictate policy I don't make more money or own a store, this type of Axe to grind is counter productive, yes there are issues in the system but if you wandered into this thread as a new or potential scuba diver, ( I do send my students to this site for other information on topics I don't know about) what would you think.
All agency's by there very nature are self serving the question is if my agency was to close up tomorrow would the agency taking its place be better. And someone will step in.
The biggest agency has a quality and assurance dept, that you do have a recourse too.
If you see a standard broken, should you use Q&A? that is one you have to answer yourself, do you ask the instructor why OR do you see it and document it send it in to the Q&A dept and watch what happens has anyone ever done the this, it is the way the only way change will happen.
No one votes on who is kicked out and changes to courses are not put to a vote either it is done in house and has to be done with a broad understanding to make things work all over the world, do I want a different Q&A system? No I want nothing to do with it at all, as such I read my updates stick to standards and teach well I try to do the best job for the student.
As I have said there are many things that could be tweaked better but by taking the question asked by the original poster and turning it in to a bad mouthing thread does no one any good does it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

this type of Axe to grind is counter productive, yes there are issues in the system but if you wandered into this thread as a new or potential scuba diver, ( I do send my students to this site for other information on topics I don't know about) what would you think.

This is the crux of it as far as I'm concerned. You have to define productive. I don't care about fixing the "system" or any specific agency. For the record, I did blow my wad of money and energy trying but that's over. If I contribute to a potential student having the incentive to put a little more thought into picking an instructor and/or agency then I think it's productive. Better yet if a new or would be instructor re-evaluates some of this a little then I'm really happy and think it's been very productive.

 

[xSandman3]

As a professional educator with 13+ years in the classroom and wayyyy too much time spent in education classes, I feel that the most important aspect of any instructor has to be the ability to teach. I had a great OW instructor as far as his skills and knowledge, but his ability to teach was questionable. Having the pedagogical skills necessary to teach an incredibly diverse student base is crucial to the success of all the students in a course.
That said, I earned my OW certification in March of this year, and want to become an instructor at some point, mostly because of my love of teaching, and not my ego. Wanting to share in this great activity of ours with others should be the number one on an instructor's priority list.

 

[Mako Mark]

the "winter layoff" and having to re-tune his skills in the spring.

does winter come before or after the hurricane season??

And raise the price of courses! How on earth do people expect to have these amazing, mature instructors with years of experience, and highly dedicated, when you can buy an OW course for $199 CANADIAN?

Make the courses more expensive (including the IDC), and raise the earnings level so as to attract the type of professional needed.

Bravo, hh, how many people are using their dive instructor card to write of a bit of tax, and how does a financial disincentive improve the quality of dive instructors.. Gimme a break.

The answer is simple in my mind. Make sure instructor trainers don't let any dead weight into the ranks. It wouldn't be 100% fool proof because there will always be a few who will squeak by but it would catch the majority of 90 day wonders who don't have the true skills to teach IMO.

Where did this whole 90 day wonder thing come from? In PADI you have to be a diver for six months before attempting instructor training, although as has been pointed out, it is generally attitude not experience that makes a good instructor.

An instructor with a good attitude backed up by varied experience makes the best instructor usually.

IDC Staff Instructor: 4 year degree (any accredited college)
Master Instructor: +20 credits post grad Education classes
Course Director: A Master's Degree in Education from an accredited college

:lol:​

So my 4 year degree in Russian literature and my 20+ credits from my international politics diploma and a masters degree in special education is all going to help me train better dive instructors??

 

[FatCat]

So let me resume: hh thinks only a piece of vellum makes for a good instructor. Poppycock!

Mike and hh both think a QA system is worthless. Did you ever stop to think that maybe if more people reacted to obvious breaches of standards, the QA systems might really work? After all: a commercial organisation needs to maintain a serious image, so responding to complaints might become a priority if enough people were to complain. Providing there is something to complain about of course. Remember: there are always two sides to a story.

Mike,

I've always looked up to you, but now I'm starting to think that you've turned sour. I hope you find a way to renew your drive.

hh,

What's this nonsense about "winter layoffs"? Winter is the time I can go diving for real, without teaching. It's great to have a break from teaching now and then. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love teaching. But sometimes I need to take a break from it. Winter's perfect for that.

And yes, I wonder what prospective divers and novice divers think of this exchange. What is all this nonsense about standards and cutting corners and business expenses? Is the theory behind diving so complicated that it takes college grads to teach it? Are most instructors incompetents? Are dive shops rip off artists?

People, get real please. No it isn't all that difficult. Most courses are good and are aimed at a broad public. Most instructors are good and will do all they can to teach you how to become a diver within the scope of the course. The kind of mystification we're witnessing here is counterproductive. For the umpteenth time: it isn't rocket science.

And hey guys, here's another piece of mystification to think about: you often see the advice that a prospective diver would be wise to choose an instructor who has certified at least x (fill in your own number, please) divers.

How in the world would we get new instructors if we were to implement this? Me, I'm all for experience. But give new instructors the chance to gain some experience. Something you can only do by... teaching.

 

[Mako Mark]

So let me resume: hh thinks only a piece of vellum makes for a good instructor. Poppycock!.

knowledge not education is the key..

People, get real please. No it isn't all that difficult. Most courses are good and are aimed at a broad public. Most instructors are good and will do all they can to teach you how to become a diver within the scope of the course. The kind of mystification we're witnessing here is counterproductive. For the umpteenth time: it isn't rocket science.

I agree, the modern instructor more often than not (if using the system correctly) is a learning guide rather an instructor. Multimedia provides the information and a systems approach to learning allows learners to teach themselves with guided instruction, which as FatCat has pointed out earlier works for the quick, and the not so quick alike.

Having the instructor as the source of information just leads to as much variation as there are instructors.

oh and fatcat, mike is always grumpy except for yesterday when he was in a particularly quirky mood, but wont say why .