Instructor Requirements- continued...

[MikeFerrara]

All such high quality people would sure be jumping on this, considering that most instructors make below minimum wage.

I say, lets make the standards much, much more difficult for FACILITIES and OWNERS, stricter regulations and requirements for them..

And raise the price of courses! How on earth do people expect to have these amazing, mature instructors with years of experience, and highly dedicated, when you can buy an OW course for $199 CANADIAN?

Make the courses more expensive (including the IDC), and raise the earnings level so as to attract the type of professional needed.

It's the dive centers and instructors who choose to give away training in order to sell equipment. Of course some of the agencies and the manufacturers endorse this practice whole heartedly. It just doesn't leave much earning potential for instructors (even those who own the dive shop).

When classes are being used as a loss leader there's very little incentive to put much into the class...you just chunk em through to sell equipment packages.

 

[MikeFerrara]

or, as above,

the instructor with a high volume actually TEACHES...and the "labor of love" instructor with no activity has no activity because they're LOUSY?

I know that volume can be a bad indicator in some locations, but there's lots who are busy because they're good! Maybe it's different in cold water vs. warm water? Ya gotta love it and be good at it if you're swamped teaching in cold water - any monkey can teach in 100 foot vis and a speedo (banana yellow, of course)

Really? Have you seen many people do a bunch of research to find a good OW instructor? I haven't. I haven't even seen word of mouth being a factor. The vast majority of new divers I've seen don't even know any local divers and many have no intention of ever diving locally. In the time I owned a dive sho what I saw is people deciding to take a tropical vacation picking up the phone book and looking for the cheapest and maybe the shortest class they could find. A $199 class that can get wrapped up in a couple of days is what sells.

I've watched dozens and dozens of instructors teach these classes and I couldn't call any of it diving.

Almost without exception the good instructors I know 1, won't teach through a dive shop 2, their classes are longer and more thourough 3, they themselves are far more experienced and skilled in the water that the cert mill instructors. Well and then there are the ones who got totally disgusted with the agencies and washed their hands of the teaching thing all together.

 

[jbd]

I'd like to agree with you, but when PADI's own website states:

"...The Course Director rating is the equivalent of having a postgraduate degree in scuba diving instruction..."

(cite: http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/pro/cd.asp )

...they are out of line with the rest of the accredited Educational industry when their published standards don't even require said Course Director to have a High School diploma.

That statement is nothing more than warm fuzzy marketing hype. A poor analogy to the education system, indicating that one has reach the "pinnacle" of their diving education.

And FYI, I know that one of those "mystified Nitrox Instuctors" I mentioned above was a high school dropout. But so long as they teach and test to the book, there's no Standards violation to put the hook on them for.

This is probably connected to your paragraph below. Its not about teaching diving. Its about convincing people to buy gear and sign up for trips. By sticking to a watered down book and striving for minimal skills anyone can instruct another person to use scuba.

The blunt reality is that the Agencies predominantly exist as a facilitator for the Industry to sell product. As such, they have a fundimental conflict of interest between high standards for safety and low standards to create customers. There is simply no escaping it.

 

[bucear]

As an Instructor with over 2,500 dives and 1,000 plus certifications from Open Water Diver through Instructor I had to throw in my two cents. Eveyone in this forum has submitted very good points and I have witnessed everything that has been discussed to date. I personally think all of the certification agencies need to have more stringent requirements for DM's and Instructors. It all boils down to the one question that as an Instructor Trainer or Course Director you need to ask yourself. "Would I let this person train one of my loved ones"?

 

[FatCat]

The US tax code is full of financial incentives that serve as social engineering motivators. One example is the home mortage interest deduction, which encourages individual home ownership.

It's not a profound new revelation that money can be used as a tool to motivate people. Granted, not all people, but some. Simple words can motviate some people too, BTW -hh

Any tax code is full of financial incentives. And yes, money is a motivator. Most volunteer instructors in nonprofit organisations turn sour after years and years of working without pay. Europe is lousy with petrified agencies run by people like that. Lots of lousy instructors as well. And they're not financially motivated...

This thread was to suggest fixes, which infers the acceptance of the premise that something was wrong. If you deny that anything can ever be fixed (even partially), then you have no basis for discussion.
-hh

I'm not denying that there isn't anything wrong, nor am I stating that nothing can be fixed, but I'm stating that scammers will always weasle their way in. If you want to get them out, do something instead of just complaining. File some QA reports or something. Oh, and check your facts before filing such a report. Sometimes people see things that aren't there because they don't see the full picture. This isn't a slight, its just advice. Nothing more.

I used to be a rabid "Anti-education" type of person myself. Sometimes, I still am, for some people are incapable of learning things in any fashion other than the hard way.
-hh

I'm not against education. On the contrary. I only wish to stress the point that formal education is no guarantee for knowledge. Most educational systems are based on reproducing knowledge rather than on understanding course content. Hence my critiscism.

An example: I had two DM candidates, one a maths teacher and the other a carpenter with nothing but vocational training and no formal education to speak of.

The maths teacher put on a show of being bored out of his skull when I taught physics, stating that it was next to impossible for an accountant to teach him something new about physics. The carpenter sought me out for some private tutoring and even went on to do some proper research of his own on decompression theory and physiology (I gave him a reading list).

The maths teacher failed his physics exam and had to take the alternate test, which he barely passed. The carpenter passed the entire exam with a median score of 90%.

Generalisations are dangerous and prerequisites like the ones you put forth might rob the industry of truly motivated instructors. As I said before: we're not teaching rocket science. Anyone with an average IQ can master the theory. And a diploma doesn't even guarantee an average IQ.

 

[-hh]

There are a lot of things that influence the quality of scuba instruction but I recognize absolutely nothing in this line of thinking.

Perhaps its because you're too close and no longer on the consumer side of the relationship. I've personally seen it, as have others who have stated as much, here in this thread.

I agree that there are bad instructors out there but I would submit that the worst of the worst act out of a sort of desperation related to not getting paid enough rather than the greed and corruption of easy money.

Yes, there are all types. I find that while it varies with location, problems with not getting paid enough (vs greed) are rife within the dive industry for fulltimers at resorts, and this is in no small part due to the long line of often young and "Newbie" Instructors who are willing to take a miserable zero paying job in order to have the reward of diving in an exotic location. This results in a labor oversupply that is then exploited by the business owners.

(think maybe a 3 years/250 dives requirement can help cut back on the ranks of these misguided romantics?)

And as nice as these people can be, probably 90% of them won't be around in 2-3 years. Some don't realize how much hard physical work they're in for how little pay, some have personal problems that they're running away from, others are rudderless drifters. Its not surprising how many of them end up with drinking problems, and its not rocket science that half of their "money problems" are thusly self-inflicted.

An oldtimer I know calls them "Dive Gypsies", because they'll burn out in a few years, which prompts them to drop out and move on. Some oldtimers won't make friendships with them because they don't want to get caught up and dragged under by the burnout cycle.

True, these Dive Gypsies can (and do) move on to another dive resort someplace else, at least for as long as they've not been unlucky enough to get bent, as this is a "black mark" on their employment records, or have other real problems.

Perhaps you haven't met any, but I've known Instructors who have gotten bent but then chose to do IWR instead of going to a chamber because they believed it was worth the risk of permanent damage to keep their resume clean. Fortunately, getting bent has less of a stigma today than it did years ago, so this practice is becoming less common.

Another friend was a good Instructor and UW Photographer until they lost this livelihood because of a career-ending DCS-II hit while on on the clock. Suffice to say that the employer never had to pay a dime in workman's compensation because this happened outside the US or EU.

The bottom line reality is that outside of actual dive instruction, its unlikely that the standard recreational Agency dive career provides its recipient any marketable skills other than basic Service Retail. YMMV, but if you want to be around water and enjoy diving, diesel engine mechanic is IMHO a better career choice than any Agency's Dive Instructor.


-hh

 

[-hh]

That statement is nothing more than warm fuzzy marketing hype. A poor analogy to the education system, indicating that one has reach the "pinnacle" of their diving education.

YMMV for when it crosses the line from marketing hype to fraud. Maybe when New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer has the time, he'll come after the Dive Industry



-hh

 

[-hh]

...I'm stating that scammers will always weasle their way in. If you want to get them out, do something instead of just complaining. File some QA reports or something. Oh, and check your facts before filing such a report. Sometimes people see things that aren't there because they don't see the full picture. This isn't a slight, its just advice. Nothing more.

A friend of mine used to work as a Case Inspector within the QA of one of the well-known USA Agencies. They believed in their own organization until they learned that a bad instructor who they had recommended be completely kicked out for a clear Standards Violation was reinstated without even a slap on the wrist.

IMNSHO, the only way that the Agency's QA systems will have any legitimacy is if they "contract it out" to an outside independent group. Unfortunately, this will never happen until the US Dive Industry becomes externally regulated, which is something that all involved know is their #1 priority to prevent.

I also happen to know that the Agencies have received a lot of feedback from their own Instructor members on the question of Instructor:Student ratio's for Resort Courses, where the grass roots concern is that it does not afford adequate safety. But the maximum allowed ratio has gone unchanged, due to "feedback" from the diveshops who claim that it would cost too much. FWIW, what do you think would be an appropriate standard here?

I'm not against education. On the contrary. I only wish to stress the point that formal education is no guarantee for knowledge.

There are no guarantees anywhere in life, including if the sun will rise tomorrow.

However, there is reasonable confidence in the functioning of some processes, such as the rotation of the Earth. The process of statistically reliable information transfer that we generalize as Education is fairly well understood, including variables such as the number of repetition cycles across what time intervals in order to move taught information from short term memory into long term memory in the human brain and what the statistically expected retention rates for different repetition and interval patterns.

(FYI, the simple answer here is 5 repetitions dispursed across at bit more than 30 days is roughly the optimal solution path).

Suffice to say that despite this scientific knowledge being known by educational experts, the fact that "quickie" (long weekend) Dive Certification classes are still allowed by the Agencies helps to provide some insight on their educational priorites and underlying motivating. Obviously, we can't prove intent, but "where there's smoke, there's a high statistical likelihood of fire".

An example: ...

Yup. And I knew a guy who wanted to be a Physicst who flunked Freshmen Physics five times before thinking about changing his major.

Generalisations are dangerous and prerequisites like the ones you put forth might rob the industry of truly motivated instructors.

True, but we also have to remember that just because someone is "motivated" doesn't mean that they're any good at it. Simialrly, those who enjoy their work doesn't mean that they're necessarily any good at it, either.


-hh

 

[scubadoguk]

A friend of mine used to work as a Case Inspector within the QA of one of the well-known USA Agencies. They believed in their own organization until they learned that a bad instructor who they had recommended be completely kicked out for a clear Standards Violation was reinstated without even a slap on the wrist.

IMNSHO, the only way that the Agency's QA systems will have any legitimacy is if they "contract it out" to an outside independent group. Unfortunately, this will never happen until the US Dive Industry becomes externally regulated, which is something that all involved know is their #1 priority to prevent.

I also happen to know that the Agencies have received a lot of feedback from their own Instructor members on the question of Instructor:Student ratio's for Resort Courses, where the grass roots concern is that it does not afford adequate safety. But the maximum allowed ratio has gone unchanged, due to "feedback" from the diveshops who claim that it would cost too much. FWIW, what do you think would be an appropriate standard here?




There are no guarantees anywhere in life, including if the sun will rise tomorrow.

However, there is reasonable confidence in the functioning of some processes, such as the rotation of the Earth. The process of statistically reliable information transfer that we generalize as Education is fairly well understood, including variables such as the number of repetition cycles across what time intervals in order to move taught information from short term memory into long term memory in the human brain and what the statistically expected retention rates for different repetition and interval patterns.

(FYI, the simple answer here is 5 repetitions dispursed across at bit more than 30 days is roughly the optimal solution path).

Suffice to say that despite this scientific knowledge being known by educational experts, the fact that "quickie" (long weekend) Dive Certification classes are still allowed by the Agencies helps to provide some insight on their educational priorites and underlying motivating. Obviously, we can't prove intent, but "where there's smoke, there's a high statistical likelihood of fire".



Yup. And I knew a guy who wanted to be a Physicst who flunked Freshmen Physics five times before thinking about changing his major.



True, but we also have to remember that just because someone is "motivated" doesn't mean that they're any good at it. Simialrly, those who enjoy their work doesn't mean that they're necessarily any good at it, either.


-hh

I hear your complaint but what have you done, not a second hand report but actually done to help the situation or is this more simple shouting and no actual action?

 

[FatCat]

The process of statistically reliable information transfer that we generalize as Education is fairly well understood, including variables such as the number of repetition cycles across what time intervals in order to move taught information from short term memory into long term memory in the human brain and what the statistically expected retention rates for different repetition and interval patterns.

(FYI, the simple answer here is 5 repetitions dispursed across at bit more than 30 days is roughly the optimal solution path).

Suffice to say that despite this scientific knowledge being known by educational experts, the fact that "quickie" (long weekend) Dive Certification classes are still allowed by the Agencies helps to provide some insight on their educational priorites and underlying motivating. Obviously, we can't prove intent, but "where there's smoke, there's a high statistical likelihood of fire".
-hh

Ah well, experts... I'm digressing here, I know, but bear with me a moment...

I don't process information the way most people do. Sorry if this sounds immodest, but I am what people call "gifted", ie I have a high IQ. Personally, I call it being cursed.

I tend to have difficulties with grasping accepted ways of offering knowledge and I mostly end up teaching myself what a teacher should be teaching me.

Oddly enough, the way I tend to assimilate knowledge translates in a very effective teaching method. Most people instinctively grasp the way I arrive at a conclusion from a set of given variables, and they tend to adopt my way of thinking out a logical problem, be it physics, math or whatever.

So I find that I cannot learn the way these "educational experts" state that learning should be done. On the other hand, I find that people who don't have a +150 IQ can learn just fine by following my own method. So far for the experts.

Know what? PADI has included different ways of getting information across to the student in their instructor manual. It's the only agency that I know of that has accepted the fact that not everyone assimilates knowledge the same way.

SSI on the other hand just spouts those "elementary steps of learning" catchphrases. It doesn't work like that for everyone. It only works for "the average person". I've never met this mythical creature.

True, but we also have to remember that just because someone is "motivated" doesn't mean that they're any good at it. Simialrly, those who enjoy their work doesn't mean that they're necessarily any good at it, either.

-hh

Remember, it's not because you're good at something that you enjoy doing it. Believe me, I know all too well. I hate being an accountant, but I'm very good at it.

On the other hand, a teacher does not have to be better qualified than his students. He only has to be able to get the information across. No diploma is ever going to guarantee teaching skills. Ever.

If any agency ever starts degree shopping, I'm going to start a revolution. The world is already swamped with idiots carrying worthless pieces of paper and thinking they are the elite. Spare me, please.