Instructor Requirements- continued...

[simbrooks]

FWIW, I find it interesting that no one has disputed the idea of a minimum of 20 dives/year in order for a year to count towards their experience.

Ok, so give me two more years and i have all the qualifications to be any of those levels you have put above As for 20 dives/year, that could be one every other weekend or a lean year. IF you intend on 100/year max counting and at least 250 over 3 years, then one year might only be 50 dives - so its a moot point if you consider it that way. However if it takes more than 3 years for them to get to 250 dives (not unlikely) at least the 20 dives/year would give them a chance to get out there, like i said maybe once every other week or for a couple of dives per month or for a long weekend every quarter - life happens and things get in the way. Personally i have only done about 110 dives in my first year diving (aim was 100), i aim at doing more this year if i can and my ears dont get in trouble again and stop me from diving - aim for 150 this year All i can say is that 20 dives/year isnt much, but it shows you are doing some diving still (you'd have to go pretty hard at it to get those on a vacation, unless it was a liveaboard).

 

[Diver0001]

....snip....

The question being, how much experience do you think is needed before somebody becomes an Instructor.

Well...since this thread has already been hijacked by pros.....

For instructor I'd like to see a minimum of 500 dives in diverse locations. Someone already noted that some people essentially lie about their experience as it is so I'm not sure this criteria is realistic without another form of control.

Would you be happy being taught an Advanced / Open Water / Rescue or even Divemaster course by somebody who actually has less experience than you?

It depends on the course. I took DM from someone who was a lot younger than me and had less diving experience (I had about 1000 dives when I took DM). However, he is a good instructor. Accurate, organised, good insight, good judgement, experienced in teaching, etc. and his students look good. That's exactly what I needed for that course. For another course I might have made a difference choice.

Or do you think it's perfectly ok to become an instructor "once they've been taught how to teach correctly"

I am not in favor of the blind leading the blind but I recognise that excellent divers are not automatically excellent teachers and visa versa. In looking for an instructor I think it's important that they are experienced enough to give a good (correct and skillful) example but the ability to get the knowledge across is an equally high priority.

R..

 

[FatCat]

Well hh,

Maybe you're not a tax expert, but I most certainly am.

I'm not going to comment on the IRS, since I have no direct experience with them, but in Belgium one tax official once tried to reject legitimate business expenses incurred by an amateur painter who regularly sold paintings (on which there is VAT - a kind of sales tax - due by the seller), arguing that "the tax system was not conceived to finance someone's hobby".

The courts in Belgium came down on this taxman's decision like the proverbial ton of bricks. And a good thing that was too.

As Diver0001 already stated, an instructor in most countries has just about a snowball's chance in hell of making a decent living. So a tax rebate or a deduction is the only possible way of salvaging some of the expenses incurred in teaching other people how to dive. So stop picking on the defenseless please.

Scammers and shady dealers will always exist. They are a fact of life, just like politicians. Get over it. If you encounter some, stop whining and report them to their agency, and keep on reporting until you get a reaction.

As for the rest: as I already stated, as far as I'm concerned, the only valid statement you've made is the one about experience. Although... What good is someone who has logged 300 dives as a hanger-on? I prefer someone with say 150 dives of which at least a 100 dives were done as dive leader/navigator.

As for your "educational prerequisites", let's just say that I find this snobbery in the extreme. Prove to me - with hard facts - why a college degree would give someone an advantage in teaching scuba.

I have had no benefit whatsoever from my college education in real life. I gained entry into my profession based on a degree, but I gained knowledge from being taught by someone who held no degree at all.

 

[-hh]

Sorry hh, this makes no sense to me. You would punish all part timers for the ones who are bad?

Yes, that is a very big problem with what I proposed. As you said, no system is 100% foolproof.

My experience has been that part timers care just as much about quality as full timers.

In my experience, part timers fall into at least two catagories. There's the ones who enjoy diving and teaching and don't really care about money (usually because they get enough money from their day job), and then there's the ones who love diving and take up Leadership as a way to help pay for it (usually because they DON'T get enough money from their day job).

Of these two, the "problem instructors" I've seen tend to cluster in the latter, not the former.

Lets quit the carpet bombing solutions and go for more of a surgical strike.

I'd love to do so. The only question is how.

The answer is simple in my mind. Make sure instructor trainers don't let any dead weight into the ranks.

Nice idea, but how do you define "dead weight"?

For example, if you're going to do it by the number of Certifications issued per year, you've probably just pushed out the low activity 'Labor of Love' instructors, and kept the "gotta push some more students thru a class 'cauze I want another free dive trip to Florida" Bad Apple.

Pragmatically, we have to recognize that the more labor a particular rule needs from an Agency's HQ to be applied/enforced, the less effective it will be.

-hh

 

[-hh]

What, exactly, is the problem with someone engaged in a professional activity in a badly paid sector receiving a tax benefit?

Absolutely nothing.

The "system" is set up, to some extent, to make it possible for small scale entrepreneurs to keep doing what they do.

Yes, and unfortunately, the system also allows a well-heeled individuals the same tax breaks if he wants to dabble.

You know how much a typical instructor makes?

Fulltimers earn a pittance.

For example, a job currently being advertised in the Caymans is looking for an _experienced_ Diesel Mechanic / DM / Instructor *with* responsibility to supervise the resort's diveboat fleet for a whopping CI$ 9-14 per hour (+tips).

What part of this makes you think that pros are conspiring to scam the "system"?

IMO, its not the fulltimers who are scamming the system. Its _some_ of the partimers who have high paying day jobs and who are able to afford gear and trips that take maximum advantage of those tax breaks.

... Suffice it to say that the financial motivation is the LAST thing that gets most people into teaching. Most of the people I know who do this work are happy if they break even.

I wholeheartedly agree. The question is how do we keep these people while identifying the bad apples who have different motivations?

Look, I know that I'm taking a lot of heat on this "Money" issue, but people, please take a chill and moment to try to understand.

Do we agree that there's "bad" people out there mixed in with the good?

Do we agree that it would be nice to figure out a way to sort them out so that we can get rid of them?

Or even better, figure out what makes them tick so that they'll sort _themselves_ out?

That's the simple bottom line. Now we all know that money is a motivator (we've seen how many responses it has already "motivated" here!). Is it possible to perhaps use it as one more tool in our toolbox to get rid of the bad apples or not?

IMO, I think we can use their differences in financial motives as an angle that gives us a tool to use. Yes, we have figure out how to use it without hurt the good people by accident.

-hh

 

[opiniongirl]

or, as above,

the instructor with a high volume actually TEACHES...and the "labor of love" instructor with no activity has no activity because they're LOUSY?

I know that volume can be a bad indicator in some locations, but there's lots who are busy because they're good! Maybe it's different in cold water vs. warm water? Ya gotta love it and be good at it if you're swamped teaching in cold water - any monkey can teach in 100 foot vis and a speedo (banana yellow, of course)

 

[jbd]

For example, and to be VERY specific to proposed minimums, using PADI's structure:

IDC Staff Instructor: 4 year degree (any accredited college)
Master Instructor: +20 credits postgrad Education classes
Course Director: A Master's Degree in Education from an accredited college
-hh

This is extreme overkill IMO. Diving and teaching one how to teach others to dive is just not this difficult or complex.

I have had instructors in various activities throughout my life with and without degrees at any level. Some of the very best did not have a degree and the very worst had Ph D's.

Whats important is Why do you want to teach? What motivates you to teach?

Teaching is about improving someone elses life, by enhancing their knowledge and or their skills. This requires caring about the people you are teaching. No amount of education can confer this caring on a person. They either have it naturally or they don't. The ones that really care are the ones that want the students to get it right, completely, not just barely passing. The ones that care celebrate in the real successes of their students,not because they are great teachers, but because the students were great students.

 

[-hh]

Well hh,

Maybe you're not a tax expert, but I most certainly am.

The US tax code is full of financial incentives that serve as social engineering motivators. One example is the home mortage interest deduction, which encourages individual home ownership.

It's not a profound new revelation that money can be used as a tool to motivate people. Granted, not all people, but some. Simple words can motviate some people too, BTW

Scammers and shady dealers will always exist. They are a fact of life, just like politicians. Get over it. If you encounter some, stop whining and report them to their agency, and keep on reporting until you get a reaction.

This thread was to suggest fixes, which infers the acceptance of the premise that something was wrong. If you deny that anything can ever be fixed (even partially), then you have no basis for discussion.

As for the rest: as I already stated, as far as I'm concerned, the only valid statement you've made is the one about experience. Although... What good is someone who has logged 300 dives as a hanger-on? I prefer someone with say 150 dives of which at least a 100 dives were done as dive leader/navigator.

I agree, but we also have to balance out the question of what meaningful value-added does introducing this additional complexity provide?

As for your "educational prerequisites", let's just say that I find this snobbery in the extreme.

I used to be a rabid "Anti-education" type of person myself. Sometimes, I still am, for some people are incapable of learning things in any fashion other than the hard way.


-hh

 

[-hh]

This is extreme overkill IMO.

I'd like to agree with you, but when PADI's own website states:

"...The Course Director rating is the equivalent of having a postgraduate degree in scuba diving instruction..."

(cite: http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/pro/cd.asp )

...they are out of line with the rest of the accredited Educational industry when their published standards don't even require said Course Director to have a High School diploma.

I have had instructors in various activities throughout my life with and without degrees at any level. Some of the very best did not have a degree and the very worst had Ph D's.

I have too. And while I've met idiots with PhD's, when it comes to diving, of the dive buddies that I've had that have literally endangered me, the majority of them had very poor formal educations. I can't prove a correlation, but I certainly suspect one. And FYI, I know that one of those "mystified Nitrox Instuctors" I mentioned above was a high school dropout. But so long as they teach and test to the book, there's no Standards violation to put the hook on them for.

Whats important is Why do you want to teach? What motivates you to teach?

The blunt reality is that the Agencies predominantly exist as a facilitator for the Industry to sell product. As such, they have a fundimental conflict of interest between high standards for safety and low standards to create customers. There is simply no escaping it.

Teaching is about improving someone elses life, by enhancing their knowledge and or their skills. This requires caring about the people you are teaching. No amount of education can confer this caring on a person. They either have it naturally or they don't. The ones that really care are the ones that want the students to get it right, completely, not just barely passing. The ones that care celebrate in the real successes of their students,not because they are great teachers, but because the students were great students.

Agreed, 100%. Unfortunately, as soon as money enters the equasion, motivations are affected.

-hh

 

[Diver0001]

IMO, its not the fulltimers who are scamming the system. Its _some_ of the partimers who have high paying day jobs and who are able to afford gear and trips that take maximum advantage of those tax breaks.

There are a lot of things that influence the quality of scuba instruction but I recognize absolutely nothing in this line of thinking.

I agree that there are bad instructors out there but I would submit that the worst of the worst act out of a sort of desperation related to not getting paid enough rather than the greed and corruption of easy money.

To put it as lightly as I possibly can, I think what you are saying is absurd.

R..