Instructor Requirements- continued...

[gjmmotors]

The use of "double dipping" or getting credit for two dives insted of one is rather common. ****, the IDC students were doing it during the class I was in.
All padi would have to do is change the standard from the number of dives to the amount of hours in water. For example, 100 hours vs. 100 dives. You could do 100 dives and only have 33 hours (2000 minutes) in water. That would end the double dipping and all the other nonsense that goes on.

 

[SteveDiver]

Funny you should mention that. I dove with a guy I had just met and after 20 min he thumbed the dive. When I asked him what was wrong he said he wanted to get 2 "dives" off 1 tank of air to get his count up for his IDC . Last time I dove with that guy. That is why every prosective student should ask to see the instructor's log, or at least ask about his dive experience. If your instructor is not regularly diving to a greater skill level than the course you are taking find another instructor!

And this type of so called Instructor is one that I would not want! I want an Instructor that has "true experience" not one that rushed through the program to get the title. To me, title's absolutely mean nothing it is the true experience that will earn my respect. I cannot understand how someone would feel proud of their diving status when it was achieved in a haphazard way. Just because you are a DM/Instructor does not make one better then another. Instructor's should be a mentor for new students not full of s***! Beware there are fakes out there that just want the title to prove to whomever cares that they are "somebody" which is a serious case of insecurity.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I dunno. Usually the instructors who cut corners don't last more than a few months anyway. Personally, I think the number of certifications, with a variety of courses taught is a much better indication of experience.

We've come across a shop that contracts some instructors who aren't thought very highly of. In fact, one has been spoken to on a few occasions regarding teaching by the standards. These instructors still teach. Why? Because they're warm bodies with the right credentials who can fill in the holes in the schedule and keep the money coming in.

Not sure how the other agencies do it, but with PADI, you have certain things that need to be accomplished and you earn your c-card. A lot of shops will only schedule enough time for ow class to cover those standards, so where does the experience come in. Most ow instructors we've come across won't teach outside of the standards or even talk about things outside of the standards. This doesn't come until advanced, specialty, tech, etc. So what does it matter at the ow level. I'm sure if a monkey could be trained to teach ow there would be some shops that would use them (in fact, I think some of the shops we've encountered are using some monkeys in really good disguises).

So, I do think there should be higher standards for specialty/tech instructors. I also think that should be the case for owi, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. It's our future. And it's not only happening with scuba. Last year, the AMA (governs doctors) passed a regulation limiting the number of hours residents can work/take call every week. So, if you end up seeing a doctor in about three years that just completed residency, you're getting one with a lot less clinical experience. Pretty scary!

 

[MikeFerrara]

I dunno. Usually the instructors who cut corners don't last more than a few months anyway. Personally, I think the number of certifications, with a variety of courses taught is a much better indication of experience.

My experience doesn't reflect this. Around here the instructors who cut the most corners offer the cheapest classes and do them the fastest. It's an absolute mess to witness but a guy can issue 400 or so certs a year that way.

Personally, don't matter to me if they spent 30 minutes looking at sand vs. 30 minutes looking at a reef - as was said above, there are lots of divers who've got thousands of logged dives that are complete morons...

I agree. There's no way that the number of dives will ever tell the whole story.

And I'd rather take the OW course (if I were so lucky to do the whole thing again) from an instructor who's taught 500 open water courses, rather than some crusty old sailor who's been diving forever, teaching forever, but only has a few certs and the last OW course taught was 5 years ago...

Just as the number of dives doesn't tell the whole story for a diver, I don't think the number of classes taught or the number of certifications issued tell the whole story for an instructor.

I like an instructor who dives well and teaches well, period. From what I've seen around here, I'd say they need to start taking a look at some of the instructors issueing extrordinarily large numbers of certs in a given period of time because often something is wrong. They're not always just great salespeople or super popular instructors.

I know of a shop who stations a instructor on a platform. a DM shuttled students out. The drop down, do skills on the platform and get shuttled directly to the exit point. I'll bet they shuttle 40 students through in a weekend and not a single one ever does a dive. The agency loves them.

 

[SteveDiver]

And this type of so called Instructor is one that I would not want! I want an Instructor that has "true experience" not one that rushed through the program to get the title. To me, title's absolutely mean nothing it is the true experience that will earn my respect. I cannot understand how someone would feel proud of their diving status when it was achieved in a haphazard way. Just because you are a DM/Instructor does not make one better then another. Instructor's should be a mentor for new students not full of s***! Beware there are fakes out there that just want the title to prove to whomever cares that they are "somebody" which is a serious case of insecurity.

It is to bad that PADI/NAUI do not spot check these instructors by sending in a diver that plays the role of a student to audit their class. If found that the instructor is a danger to others they should pull their c-card....

 

[wedivebc]

It is to bad that PADI/NAUI do not spot check these instructors by sending in a diver that plays the role of a student to audit their class. If found that the instructor is a danger to others they should pull their c-card....

PADI does do quality control by sending questionaires to students. Not a fool proof method but they do more than some agencies in that department.

 

[jbd]

PADI does do quality control by sending questionaires to students. Not a fool proof method but they do more than some agencies in that department.

NAUI includes the questionaire with the student materials kit.

 

[MikeFerrara]

PADI does do quality control by sending questionaires to students. Not a fool proof method but they do more than some agencies in that department.

The questionairs are looking for standards violation and include questions like..."how many dives did you do" or whatever. It's better than nothing but the biggest problem that I've seen are the instructors who are masters of meeting standards and teaching rotten class that's legal.

I have discussed this with PADI and I never got the impression that they wanted to do anything about it. All they would have to do is visit any of our busy training sites on any weekend and they would see plenty of things that need to be addressed.

 

[-hh]

The questionairs are looking for standards violation and include questions like..."how many dives did you do" or whatever. It's better than nothing but the biggest problem that I've seen are the instructors who are masters of meeting standards and teaching rotten class that's legal.

I have discussed this with PADI and I never got the impression that they wanted to do anything about it.

Of course, because actually doing good QA costs them money.


The question with Instructor standards is to look at the qualifications of the type of people that are attracted to the business and which of those are more or less likely part of the problems.

To this end, my personal call would be to incorporate the following. All are required before being allowed to _start_ to become an Instructor:

a) A High School Diploma. Believe it or not, its not currently required.

b) A "C" grade or higher in a College level Physics class (that covers Gas Laws, etc) from a legally Acredited College.

c) Three full calendar years of active diving since the candidate was first certified. A year of active diving is defined as having done 20 or more dives. (Note: this is to prevent the "90 day wonders").

d) A minimum of 250 dives completed, with the caveat that no more than 100 dives per calendar year can be applied. (Note: this is to try to minimize "double dipping" and other strategies for quickly stacking up a bunch of dives to qualify).

e) For Instructor Trainers, a 4 year College Diploma.

f) A hard one. Its to somehow prohibit non-career (non-fulltime) instructors from being able to claim IRS tax deductions for their dive gear and dive trips, etc...it has been my impression that the "snakes" that cause headaches are often guys who only become instructors so as to help them 'beat the system', so the idea is to take away their financial incentive. I know this isn't this cut and dry, but I've hopefully explained the crux of what I'm after. Ditto for enforcement, as this would involve the IRS. But for sake of an example, if your maximum tax deduction for gear/trips frequently exceeds your income from dive instruction, you're probably using dive instruction as an unethical tax cheat to support your hobby. Its either a hobby or a vocation, so a tall firewall between the two is both appropriate and needed.


-hh

 

[FatCat]

To this end, my personal call would be to incorporate the following. All are required before being allowed to _start_ to become an Instructor:

a) A High School Diploma. Believe it or not, its not currently required.

b) A "C" grade or higher in a College level Physics class (that covers Gas Laws, etc) from a legally Acredited College.

-hh

Jayzes! A diploma does not equal intelligence or education. The two are non-related.

As for diving physics: it's not rocket science. Anyone who can read, write and who knows simple arithmetic can learn this.

c) Three full calendar years of active diving since the candidate was first certified. A year of active diving is defined as having done 20 or more dives. (Note: this is to prevent the "90 day wonders").

d) A minimum of 250 dives completed, with the caveat that no more than 100 dives per calendar year can be applied. (Note: this is to try to minimize "double dipping" and other strategies for quickly stacking up a bunch of dives to qualify).
-hh

There is something to be said for this, but still: no two instructor candidates are the same.

e) For Instructor Trainers, a 4 year College Diploma.
-hh

Oh please! Get real! As I said before: a degree proves nothing.

f) A hard one. Its to somehow prohibit non-career (non-fulltime) instructors from being able to claim IRS tax deductions for their dive gear and dive trips, etc...it has been my impression that the "snakes" that cause headaches are often guys who only become instructors so as to help them 'beat the system', so the idea is to take away their financial incentive. I know this isn't this cut and dry, but I've hopefully explained the crux of what I'm after. Ditto for enforcement, as this would involve the IRS. But for sake of an example, if your maximum tax deduction for gear/trips frequently exceeds your income from dive instruction, you're probably using dive instruction as an unethical tax cheat to support your hobby. Its either a hobby or a vocation, so a tall firewall between the two is both appropriate and needed.

-hh

Very nice try, but no cigar. Unless you're working as an employee for a store, you'll always be working without actually making money. Most instructors spend more money on teaching courses than they actually earn from teaching. Don't believe me? Tough. It's still the truth.

Instructors who work full time at resort locations are usually paid peanuts. Even stores don't really make that much money off courses. Courses are a way of attracting new divers, keeping certified divers interested and thus selling gear. Simple economics. Maybe you should try taking an economics course in college. I did.

I learned that the theory bears little or no resemblance to the truth.

So think again, would you.