Instructor Requirements- continued...

[MikeFerrara]

I'm not sure but I think PADI 5 star career development centers are exempt from the six month rule. I know for a fact that I've seen initial cert to instructor advertised in less than the required time.

Hey did any one see that tv show last night about Pearl Harbor? They did some diving at Bakini too. 160 ft, vertical swimming with their hands...it was a site. They were like 20 ft off the bottom and blowing up silt from the bottom. They got to the doorway of a ship, planted their feet and actually walked in.

Now I don't know what agencies these clowns were certified through but entering wrecks with skills like that especially at depths like those is dangerous fool hardy behavior. You don't have to believe me you can reference any text on the subject on the face of the planet.

The simple fact that those people who call themselves divers, consultants for the show and who ever else would allow that to get on the air is, as far as I'm concerned, proof that dive instruction is so far in the toilet that few can even tell the difference.

If I was running one of the mainstream agencies I'd be preparing a media defense this morning.

I loved it though...the star of the show says something like..."I've been this on film and that on film but when I'm off camera I'm a diver". We here had a pretty good laugh here.

I used to get mad but now I just laugh. If even a small percentage of certified divers in the world even had good diving briefly demonstrated to them during their training (even if they weren't made to actually do it) the network and the agencies would get about 5 trillion "You've got to be kidding" emails this morning.

There's something for some QA department to mull over. LOL

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm sorry Bob, but citing problems with any agency is easy. Throwing around accusations and refusing to take action is whining in my book. But then again, my book is my book, not yours.

Think about what I wrote, and the context in which I wrote it ... better yet, let me lay it out for you.

Someone quoted a requirement that didn't fit my own observations. I cited my observations and asked if it was really a requirement. How does that get construed as citing problems with an agency.

How, why would I refuse to take action? Simple ... look at your own reaction, and imagine how my "complaint" might get taken by someone who has a business interest in the situation. Now, factor in that I'm a certified instructor with what some might consider a "competing" agency. Do you suppose my complaint might get dismissed as "whining"? I thought so.

Yes there is a 6-month minimum. But, as others have stated while I was taking my beauty sleep, it's entirely possible that the person you mentioned had been certified by another agency before becoming an OWD.

In this case no ... it's not possible at all. I knew the lady in question. Dived with her a few times when she was a newbie. There's no possibility she had been previously certified.

Personally, I don't think that a CD would cheat on the requirements. Maybe I still have too much faith in humanity, I don't know.

All I know is that over the last year I've been attacked about PADI course standards and course requirements on a Belgian board against the backdrop of the new European dive norms (CEN 14153-*).

Is it possible you're simply being more defensive than you need to be ... based on a history that had nothing to do with me or this board? I think so.

Now I'm not an advocate for PADI, nor am I a PADI employee. I'm just a simple OWSI.

Me too ... and in no way am I trying to steer this into yet another PADI-bash. I'm simply stating what I observed ... and what I know to be the case. I made no judgments about the situation whatsoever. Nor do I intend to.

However, if you examine the course material in detail and you know the theory behind it, you'll find that it is very comprehensive and well-presented.

But my question had nothing to do with course material ...

And I'm sick and tired of reading stuff along the lines of "once in idunnowhere I saw a **** instructor do idunnowhat".

And so, since you're sick and tired of reading it, people should stop pointing out the reality of what they see? Or have you label them a whiner?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Jason B]

Hey did any one see that tv show last night about Pearl Harbor? They did some diving at Bakini too. 160 ft, vertical swimming with their hands...it was a site. They were like 20 ft off the bottom and blowing up silt from the bottom. They got to the doorway of a ship, planted their feet and actually walked in.

LOL...I saw it, they were so vertical while swimming that they looked like they were running. Danglies everywhere, and yes, using there hands. Sad...

Jason

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob had a chance to directly confront the 6 month wonder about his/her behaviour but from the sounds of it he didn't (which surprises me because he seems like just the kind of guy who could do this very effectively....). Reporting such things to PADI in the unrealistic hope that it makes it through the system and that PADI confronts the student's instructor and the student's instructor sees fit to intervene even though there are no standards violations being made is (a) rediculously convoluted (b) ineffective in practice and (c) shifts responsibility for doing something away from the one person who could have made a difference.

In other words, escalating this without first trying to sort it out on the ground is a show of weakness and doesn't generally deliver a satisfactory result. That, in my opinion, is little better than moaning about it.

R..

Actually, I don't see that reporting it to PADI would've done much ... except perhaps alienate me from this instructor, the dive shop she represented, and the instructor trainer who certified her ... all people I know and wish to maintain a relationship with.

First off ... and I'll say this again for emphasis ... not having known there was such a thing as a six-month experience requirement, I didn't even know there was a standards violation. I simply know that this woman went though the system in far less than six months, and how she did it. I know because at the time I was DM'ing classes for another shop and we spent our week-ends at the same dive site. Having known each other, and dived with each other in the past, we spent time socializing as well.

Second off, I'm not the confrontational sort. What I did do is go diving with her, spend time "comparing" what we knew and what we were learning from our respective training agencies. I will tell you that I watched her teach some of her first classes, and I wouldn't have recommended anyone for her classes. She was just going through the motions ... parroting material without really understanding it herself. I will also tell you that, over time, I watched her develop into a fairly competent instructor ... but that came later. To my concern she didn't come out of her instructor training adequately prepared to teach students how to become competent divers.

If those observations make anyone uncomfortable, it's really too bad. It's the reality of what I know, and what I've observed. Call it whining if you wish ... it doesn't change a thing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

it may have since changed but I checked into crossing over to the Y at one time and you had to start with taking their rescue class.

It hasn't changed. Instructors from other agencies who do not have a SLAM certification must first complete the SLAM crossover. At that point they must then complete the instructor crossover which is essentially the same as the course a YMCA AI will be taking, plus some additional material the AI received in the AI course.

 

[-hh]

I hear your complaint but what have you done...

Since I rarely take any formal training classes, I don't have the basis to personally file a Standards Violation. So what I've done is to educate the consumer to not accept shoddy product, and to help encourage them to file when a violation is clearly evident. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

Next, I minimize my financial support of the Agencies in their non-educational business centers...insurance, travel, clothing, etc.

I also freely offer my experienced opinion and advice to non-divers thinking about getting certified. Larry "Harris" Taylor's papers are often quite useful here on the question of minimum age.

Finally, I monitor ANSI Z86.3 and any public calls for comment on any proposed revisions, which forms a legal record for accountability.

I know its not much, but its also not just useless whining. Its now your turn to say what you're doing.


-hh

 

[scubadoguk]

Since I rarely take any formal training classes, I don't have the basis to personally file a Standards Violation. So what I've done is to educate the consumer to not accept shoddy product, and to help encourage them to file when a violation is clearly evident. Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.

Next, I minimize my financial support of the Agencies in their non-educational business centers...insurance, travel, clothing, etc.

I also freely offer my experienced opinion and advice to non-divers thinking about getting certified. Larry "Harris" Taylor's papers are often quite useful here on the question of minimum age.

Finally, I monitor ANSI Z86.3 and any public calls for comment on any proposed revisions, which forms a legal record for accountability.

I know its not much, but its also not just useless whining. Its now your turn to say what you're doing.


-hh

Teaching PADI to the standards Not spreading rumours that sort of stuff, not being a collage grad I don't know much about the rest of what you said ? sorry

 

[-hh]

When we speak of experience, we really need to look at both diving experience and teaching experience.

A good point that should not get lost.


-hh

 

[Mako Mark]

Not being a PADI instructor, I'm not versed in their instructor requirements ... however, I personally know of two people who went from OW to PADI instructor in less than six months. One of them was, literally, a certified instructor three months after she certified OW. And I know for a fact that she was doing ten to twelve 20-minute dives per week-end in order to get her "numbers" up to the point where she would qualify to complete her instructor training.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Then Bob, this is a clear breach of standards, both regarding the IDC and ethical standards by the candidate and the course director, and should be reported by you to PADI, if you need contact information or an email address, I will be happy to supply you with one via PM.

If PADI can't police their own, it's not my problem ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It is your problem because you are whining about it..

Anyhow, PADI requires PROOF of certification of more than six months, either in the form of their own certification records, or a photocopy of a certification from another training agency, so unless there was some date changing on the initial certification, then this sounds unlikely Bob.

In my (not unconsiderable) experience with instructor development it has been my experience that PADI is not the offending agency with regards to 10 minute double dip dives and three month instructors, but that is just my experience.

 

[-hh]

So let me resume: hh thinks only a piece of vellum makes for a good instructor. Poppycock!

Not exactly. A piece of vellum _might_ keep riff-raff out of at least the higher leadership levels.

Mike and hh both think a QA system is worthless.

Yes, it is a joke that at present has no chance of getting ISO-9001 certified.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe if more people reacted to obvious breaches of standards, the QA systems might really work?

Yes, if the consumer becomes a demanding SOB, there's a statistically nonzero chance that the QA systems will become less bad.

After all: a commercial organisation needs to maintain a serious image, so responding to complaints might become a priority if enough people were to complain. Providing there is something to complain about of course. Remember: there are always two sides to a story.

Bull. Businesses care about one thing: profits. As such, they know that they have to have a QA department to appear serious and sincere, but that does not assure that the QA department has any real budget or authority.

For but one example, PADI's banned instructor webpage is here:

http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/qm/archive.asp

If this was a high quality report, there would be a lot more information on this page, but there isn't even a Publication Date. The years listed behind each instructor's name isn't defined, but it appears to be the date that the Instructor was drummed out...the most recent date is 1997. Either PADI hasn't found a single bad instructor in the past 7 years, or they don't think its important to keep the public informed anymore, since its not rocket science to maintain one simple page of text on a website.

And if you don't think anyone else hasn't noticed the quality factor in dive training, go check out GUE.

hh,
What's this nonsense about "winter layoffs"? Winter is the time I can go diving for real, without teaching.

Sorry...call it "Seasonal Downtime".

My point is that an important skill that all relatively new divers need to learn is to remember to get everything right again after some layoff period. In temperate regions, this is typically the winter season.

And yes, I wonder what prospective divers and novice divers think of this exchange.

Hopefully, it is that they cannot simply believe everything that they're told, so they need to become a well informed consumer. Bad instructors are rightfully afraid of savvy consumers.

And hey guys, here's another piece of mystification to think about...I'm all for experience. But give new instructors the chance to gain some experience. Something you can only do by... teaching.

Sorry, but teaching is not the only skill a dive instructor needs to have: because a lot of the teaching occurs in the water, he needs excellent watermanship skills.

Ideally, we should make all Dive Leaders annually pass a watermanship test, but that costs time and money, so the self-regulated Agencies won't do it unless forced to. Even if there's a Wrongful Death Lawsuit, they'll try to pin that on the individual for his failure to remove himself from service rather than to accept responsibility for it themselves. And they protect themselves with writing an ANSI standard which then legally defines the "Accepted Industry Practices", which is a convenient closed-wagon circle for liability shielding. This is done by many industries besides just the dive industry.

-hh