Instructor Requirements- continued...

[jbd]

Hmmm, might want to rethink ANSI z 86.3. It appears, according to an article I just read, that Z 86.3 has expired and there is something else in its place, Z375.

The z375 committee appears to be made up of the RSTC or Recreational Scuba Training Council. This group started out(1990's) with several scuba agencies as members and now has 5 member agencies-- YMCA, PDIC, SSI, PADI and IDEA.

Apparently these are the folks who decide what the training standards should be and then they submit that to ANSI. ANSI then says OK here's the published standards for learning to scuba dive. Nothing more, nothing less, end of involvement.

It would appear that if anyone wants to change the standards they need to contact the above five agencies and voice their thoughts on it.

Having just been to the RSTC site I will note that SDI is now also a member.

 

[TCDiver1]

Hmmm, might want to rethink ANSI z 86.3. It appears, according to an article I just read, that Z 86.3 has expired and there is something else in its place, Z375.

Thats what i remember too. That was right around the time (about 99-00 i think) some agencies lowered the minimum age to 12. Which as i recall was not allowed via ANSI Z86.3

 

[FatCat]

While you're at it, look thru the DIN and ISO standards too (they cost around $100 each).
-hh

Very funny stuff, especially since there are no DIN and ISO standards pertaining to recreational diving services. So: good call.

Instead, check out the EN normative documents. You have to pay to get the definitive versions, but you'll find the prelims on this link http://www.instructor-training.com/d8030.asp in French and English. The prelims are quasi identical to the definitive versions.

Incidentally, PADI is the only agency to get EN certification at this time.

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) ANSI standards are identical to RSTC standards. RSTC standards can be downloaded from the RSTC web site.

PS for Mark,

I know there's something like the IM. I get it for "free" every year, provided I pay my membership fees.

It would be nice if the agencies all listed the specific course requirements on their respective websites, wouldn't it?

 

[Walter]

Thats what i remember too. That was right around the time (about 99-00 i think) some agencies lowered the minimum age to 12. Which as i recall was not allowed via ANSI Z86.

Nope. Minimum age is 12 and has been since 1986. Prior to that, some agencies had no minimum age.

It would appear that if anyone wants to change the standards they need to contact the above five agencies and voice their thoughts on it.

Nope. Each agency sets it's own standards. If an agency is a member of the RSTC, those standards must meed or exceed the RSTC recommendations. The RSTC does not write standards for any agency.

 

[-hh]

Hmmm, might want to rethink ANSI z 86.3. It appears, according to an article I just read, that Z 86.3 has expired and there is something else in its place, Z375.

There's been a big renaming in the whole ANSI/DIN/ISO community. Doesn't mean that the actual contents have changed.

The z375 committee appears to be made up of the RSTC or Recreational Scuba Training Council. This group started out(1990's) with several scuba agencies as members and now has 5 member agencies-- YMCA, PDIC, SSI, PADI and IDEA.

It dates back further than that. The "latest" version of 86.3 had been 1989.

Apparently these are the folks who decide what the training standards should be and then they submit that to ANSI. ANSI then says OK here's the published standards for learning to scuba dive. Nothing more, nothing less, end of involvement.

The benefit of them doing this is that they define what the 'accepted industry practices' are. Being that its a panel of multiple entities, the idea is that this prevents an Oligarchical situation...in reality, it doesn't.

It would appear that if anyone wants to change the standards they need to contact the above five agencies and voice their thoughts on it.

There's another way, which is to become a member of the standards panel yourself. The trick is that this a non-compensated volunteer position, so most private individuals won't be willing to pay their own way in order to attend the meetings.


-hh

 

[Diver0001]

Then Bob, this is a clear breach of standards, both regarding the IDC and ethical standards by the candidate and the course director, and should be reported by you to PADI, if you need contact information or an email address, I will be happy to supply you with one via PM.

You mean the three month thing....?

Do you really think that an experienced course director would collaborate with a brand new diver to systematically lie to PADI about an experience criterium KNOWING that PADI had her OW cert date on file..... That's a huge risk to take (for both of them) and I can't see what could possibly have motivated not one but two people to risk their professional status for a three month jump start...... That would be completely insane. There must be more to this than meets the eye.

R..

 

[jbd]

Nope. Each agency sets it's own standards. If an agency is a member of the RSTC, those standards must meed or exceed the RSTC recommendations. The RSTC does not write standards for any agency.

Apparently what the RSTC does is come up with a set of standards whcih it submits to ANSI for publication. It would make sense that the member agencies would recognize these as bare minimums and allow exceeding them. Your study from a few years ago shows that there is a difference between agency minimum standards. The RSTC standards serve as the core or base from which the agencies work from.

 

[FatCat]

About the QA process/

Yes, it is a joke that at present has no chance of getting ISO-9001 certified.

Do you actually know what you're talking about? Or do you just spout nonsense?

FYI, the ISO-9001 standard is an evaluation of processes. It is nothing more than the verification of a checklist set against a list of procedures employed within an organisation. If it weren't against the law, you could get ISO certification for a narcotics lab provided it followed its own manufacturing procedures.

And if you don't think anyone else hasn't noticed the quality factor in dive training, go check out GUE.
-hh

Ah, now you're just trolling...

 

[Scubakevdm]

Apparently what the RSTC does is come up with a set of standards whcih it submits to ANSI for publication. It would make sense that the member agencies would recognize these as bare minimums and allow exceeding them. Your study from a few years ago shows that there is a difference between agency minimum standards. The RSTC standards serve as the core or base from which the agencies work from.

This is correct. RSTC is secretariat to the ANSI Scuba instructional standards. The ANSI standards are a framework that the instructional standards of any agency that wishes to be recognised must fit inside. The agency can be as restrictive as they want, but must meet the minimums set forth by the RSTC via ANSI. I don't know why knowing the ANSI standards would be all that helpful for an instructor, unless they were starting up an agency. At least, that's my take. There's lots of stuff I don't know.

 

[-hh]

Very funny stuff, especially since there are no DIN and ISO standards pertaining to recreational diving services. So: good call.

Keyword "scuba" at http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/find.asp?

...returns the following results:

DIN EN 14153-1 Recreational diving services - Safety related minimum requirements for the training of recreational scuba divers - Part 1: Level 1 - Supervised diver (FOREIGN STANDARD) $97.50

DIN EN 14153-2 Recreational diving services - Safety related minimum requirements for the training of recreational scuba divers - Part 2: Level 2 - Autonomous diver (FOREIGN STANDARD) $105.00

DIN EN 14153-3 Recreational diving services - Safety related minimum requirements for the training of recreational scuba divers - Part 3: Level 3 - Dive leader (FOREIGN STANDARD) $97.50

DIN EN 14413-1 Recreational Diving Services - Safety related minimum requirements for the training of scuba instructors - Part 1: Level 1 (FOREIGN STANDARD) $106.50

DIN EN 14413-2 Recreational Diving Services - Safety related minimum requirements for the training of scuba instructors - Part 2: Level 2 (FOREIGN STANDARD) $106.50

DIN EN 14467 Recreational diving services - Requirements for recreational scuba diving service providers (FOREIGN STANDARD)

Instead, check out the EN normative documents.

Being that the above say "DIN EN xxxx", it sounds like we're talking about the same documents.

You have to pay to get the definitive versions, but you'll find the prelims on this link http://www.instructor-training.com/d8030.asp in French and English. The prelims are quasi identical to the definitive versions.

I've quickly glanced through the first of these and it looks very generally similar to the old ANSI Z86.3 ... what I do know is present in 86.3 that I didn't see listed in this EN was any equipment requirements for the Instructor.

As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) ANSI standards are identical to RSTC standards. RSTC standards can be downloaded from the RSTC web site.

There's one on the WRSTC website that looks pretty similar.

It would be nice if the agencies all listed the specific course requirements on their respective websites, wouldn't it?

Its been done. See:

http://www.diverlink.com/newdiver/agencycomparison.htm

Of course, we don't need to mention which Agency sued a guy who dared to to write a cross-Agency summary comparison to help the consumer ... but we should mention that their lawsuit was thrown out in both California and Florida.



-hh