Instructor Requirements- continued...

[Scubakevdm]

I didn't get the impression that ANSI was legally binding or set legal definitions. Did I miss something?

I think that the ANSI requirements could be used as a basis for law, but they aren't law in and of themselves. The diving industry has always tried to regulate itself for the most part in order to minimize government regulation.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Its a recognized publication of "accepted industry practices", which will be accepted almost without question by the Court.

The process goes this way:

- Someone gets hurt.
- They decide that the Instructor and/or Agency is to blame.
- They file a lawsuit.
- Instructor passes the liability buck by pointing to Agency Standards.
- Agency passes the liability buck by citing RSTC Standards.
- RSTC passes the liability buck by by citing "Accepted Industry Pracices" by pointing to the ANSI (or whoever) Standard.
- ANSI passes the liability buck by pointing out that those who wrote the Standard are volunteers who can't be held liable.
- Case is closed.

While this is good in theory, the problem is that there's almost no check-and-balance that prevents the participants from oligarchial collusion to set the standards bar rediculously low, and then use that document as a liability shield as shown above.

This is not good in theory. It's even worse in reality. Its seems as though you are mis-informed... furthermore it seems as if you are mis-informing yourself.

 

[jbd]

This is not good in theory. It's even worse in reality. Its seems as though you are mis-informed... furthermore it seems as if you are mis-informing yourself.

Hmmm; about the only thing I see missing is that -hh didn't close the circle or go back down the ladder so to speak. Instead of Case closed it would end up back in the lap of the instructor.

What do you see that indicates -hh is misinformed?

 

[Scubakevdm]

So where do I fit in as an instrcutor for an agency that is not a member of ANSI or RSTC?

Just becuase NAUI isn't an active member of the RSTC council, doesn't mean that Naui standards don't fit within the RSTC minimums.

 

[Walter]

Of course, we don't need to mention which Agency sued a guy who dared to to write a cross-Agency summary comparison to help the consumer ... but we should mention that their lawsuit was thrown out in both California and Florida.

Close, but not exactly accurate. PADI never sued me for writing the comparison. They sued Diverlink for publishing it. After a long drawn out process in California, the judge dropped the charges and ordered PADI to pay Diverlink's legal fees. In the meantime, PADI tried to have me held in contempt of court. This was because they had a subpoena issued for me to deliver documents. I delivered them at the specified time and place. They were not there to receive them. I retained an attorney to represent me in this matter. The judge in Florida ruled PADI could have a new subpoena issued for the documents, but that I was not in contempt because I had complied fully with the previous subpoena. The judge also ordered PADI to pay my legal fees. PADI has paid my fees, I don't believe they have paid Diverlink's fees as they have appealed.

 

[simbrooks]

Close, but not exactly accurate. PADI never sued me for writing the comparison. They sued Diverlink for publishing it. After a long drawn out process in California, the judge dropped the charges and ordered PADI to pay Diverlink's legal fees. In the meantime, PADI tried to have me held in contempt of court. This was because they had a subpoena issued for me to deliver documents. I delivered them at the specified time and place. They were not there to receive them. I retained an attorney to represent me in this matter. The judge in Florida ruled PADI could have a new subpoena issued for the documents, but that I was not in contempt because I had complied fully with the previous subpoena. The judge also ordered PADI to pay my legal fees. PADI has paid my fees, I don't believe they have paid Diverlink's fees as they have appealed.

And as the world learns to dive, the world is paying PADI's fees

Good to hear you came out unscathed from all that Walter!

 

[ScubaFreak]

I too, like some people have lurked in this thread from the background - even though I started it, but i feel like jumping in.

I've seen all kinds of things pop up in this thread, from people becoming instructors for tax dodging reasons (how that rubbish even came up mystifies me) to people PADI bashing, to requiring masters degrees to be able to teach and finally, to people biting friends

I am an instructor purely as a hobby. Not for money, not as a a full time job, but because I enjoy teaching scuba, simple as that. I have no Diploma or degree. I didn't go to college, as i simply didn't want to, I had various other things that I wanted to do instead. It took me 3 years, before I did my DM course. When I did it, it took me about 8 months and I worked my butt off. After that I chilled for a while, dived a bit, travelled a bit, after a while did my AI course, which i found very helpful, probably because i had a great CD. 6 months later after some experience as an AI, I did the OWSI portion and became an instructor.

I do feel that the requirement to teach recreational diving is too low- although I didn't at the time! I think a 250 dive requirement is much better than 100, and I feel the 3 year requirement to be certified before going through instructor training is also a good idea- provided the candidate was active in those three years.
I don't deem myself to be the perfect instructor, but i'd be confident that my skills are where they need to be. I don't know squat about tech diving, gas mixes, deco procedures, and have no problem telling my students that if they ask, i'll refer them to someone else, or I'll try and find the answer if I have the resources. At some stage I might go down that road, but not right now. I want to be able to work my skills as an instructor and improve with every student I certify. I learn something new with every class I teach, and when i have students tell me that they're interested in the instructor route, i'll advise them on the way I got mine. Not because its the right or wrong way, but because it worked for me.

Now after that blabbering i'm hungry...

Scubafreak

 

[The Kraken]

Keep in mind that all of these "standards" organizations are comprised of organizations involved in like or similar industries and were created to generate a standardization within that respective industry.

Like nuts and bolts . . . by and large all of the nuts and bolts bought in the U.S. conform to a certain agency's standards, but it's not unlawful to manufacture and use a nut or bolt that is not accepted or acknowledged by this organization.

 

[FatCat]

So where do I fit in as an instrcutor for an agency that is not a member of ANSI or RSTC?

Ah, jbd, NAUI Japan is a member of the Japan C-Card Council (what's in a name?), which in turn is a member of WRSTC.

 

[Scubakevdm]

Hmmm; about the only thing I see missing is that -hh didn't close the circle or go back down the ladder so to speak. Instead of Case closed it would end up back in the lap of the instructor.

What do you see that indicates -hh is misinformed?

You got it yourself, only it would look more like:

1 Someone gets hurt.
2 They sue the instructor, the agency, and the dive shop.
3 A determination is made as to wether or not there was a standards violation.
4 If yes, then the Agency says, "we told him not to do that, we told him that if he did that someone would get hurt. See... right here in the instructor manual, here here and here on his instructor exam, etc."
5 If no, the agency say "scuba diving is inherently dangerous, we told you that. See? Here next to your signature on this waiver, here in your open water text, here on your quiz... our instructor upheld and exceeded nationally recognised standards for scuba instruction.