Instructor Requirements- continued...

[Mako Mark]

Sorry Bob if I was harsh on you back there, but it did look like you came out swinging..

(getting thread back on topic)

how many people think adequate and how many think not??



here is what I have gathered from this thread so far.

Knowlege is not measured by education.

dive training is market driven and if divers were not recieving adequate training, the numbers of people taking up the sport would be falling not rising.

Instructor training must be adaquate as morbidity and mortality rates are falling not rising.

Readyness to be an instructor is a judgement call and the prerequisites are just a line drawn in the sand as there has to be a line somewhere.

The prerequisites are minimums.

Not everyone that meets the minimum prerequisites is ready to be an instructor.

Instructor training prepares you to start teaching, not to know everything.

 

[Derek S]

f) A hard one. Its to somehow prohibit non-career (non-fulltime) instructors from being able to claim IRS tax deductions for their dive gear and dive trips, etc...it has been my impression that the "snakes" that cause headaches are often guys who only become instructors so as to help them 'beat the system', so the idea is to take away their financial incentive. I know this isn't this cut and dry, but I've hopefully explained the crux of what I'm after. Ditto for enforcement, as this would involve the IRS. But for sake of an example, if your maximum tax deduction for gear/trips frequently exceeds your income from dive instruction, you're probably using dive instruction as an unethical tax cheat to support your hobby. Its either a hobby or a vocation, so a tall firewall between the two is both appropriate and needed.


-hh

You want to cut down on government waste? Go after individuals on public assistance (welfare) who have no inclination to get a job or be motivated to make something of themselves. You sound like you'd be willing to spend $1,000 to save $1. That is, of course, unless you are simply jealous and wish to be able to do the same thing....

 

[jhelmuth]

Actually, it seems like almost every fatality I hear about involves very experienced, very highly trained divers. I'm pretty sure most of them had mastered buoyancy control.

Can't say that my experience matches up with yours. While I may be wrong, in all of those cases I doubt that they were highly trained (and very experienced is doubtful in my mind as well). I say that because I consider most (if not all) the "rec" training to be of low quality. Based only on emperical evidence, I'd say that only GUE is really doing a decent job of defining the training (and there are some good trainers in some of the cavern/cave courses, albeit I am not familiar enough with their agency training stds to comment on the agency requirements). In any case, I consider these to be more "tec" than "rec" courses.
As far as experience... well, define what "very experienced" means and I may change my reply. To me, you can't claim "very experienced" until you can dive any and all conditions (cold/dry/cave/no-low viz/etc) with at least a few hundred in each condition. I've got over 200 rec dives in (nearly every one warm and few overhead/wrecks) and I would say that I am just a typical rec diver "learning". Some people think this makes them "very experienced" (give-me-a-break)...

 

[Scubakevdm]

Can't say that my experience matches up with yours. While I may be wrong, in all of those cases I doubt that they were highly trained (and very experienced is doubtful in my mind as well). I say that because I consider most (if not all) the "rec" training to be of low quality. Based only on emperical evidence, I'd say that only GUE is really doing a decent job of defining the training (and there are some good trainers in some of the cavern/cave courses, albeit I am not familiar enough with their agency training stds to comment on the agency requirements). In any case, I consider these to be more "tec" than "rec" courses.
As far as experience... well, define what "very experienced" means and I may change my reply. To me, you can't claim "very experienced" until you can dive any and all conditions (cold/dry/cave/no-low viz/etc) with at least a few hundred in each condition. I've got over 200 rec dives in (nearly every one warm and few overhead/wrecks) and I would say that I am just a typical rec diver "learning". Some people think this makes them "very experienced" (give-me-a-break)...

Here's the first site that came up when I yahoo'd scuba accident reports.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Actually, it seems like almost every fatality I hear about involves very experienced, very highly trained divers. I'm pretty sure most of them had mastered buoyancy control.

You have to define "highly trained" Note that after OW you're pretty much done being taught technique. For the most part (as far as basic diing skills)whatever you aren't taught in OW you aren't going to be taught. Even at the instructor level you just demo the same skills on your knees as you had to in your own OW class. No one checks to see if you can really dive.

There are some basic and important concepts that just aren't taught or required to be demonstrated anywhere in the whole educational progression.

Ever see a course director who has to kneel to study his compass? LOL I have. Such a thing just shouldn't be possible. An AOW student sitting on a platform tieing knots for a S&R dive?...crawling in a circle for a circular search? Rescue, while a good class, it doesn't teach diving. Then it's on to DM and instructor.

There are certainly instructors who don't do it that way but they can, it's ok with the agency and plenty do. They also have to be price competative with the instructors who do.


The DAN report I think shows a high percentage of injured divers have little training and little recent experience. The numbers spike again with instructors and stuff but there again the definition of very experienced and highly trained seems to be...has been practicing their kneeling for a very long time and they're extremely good at it. LOL

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sorry Bob if I was harsh on you back there, but it did look like you came out swinging..

No worries ... I probably should've considered my words more carefully.

here is what I have gathered from this thread so far.

Knowlege is not measured by education.

Now, if you mean "formal" education, I would agree with you. However, education encompasses far more than instruction. For example, I get an education every time I dive with Uncle Pug, and he doesn't have to say a word ... all I have to do is pay attention and try to emulate.

dive training is market driven and if divers were not recieving adequate training, the numbers of people taking up the sport would be falling not rising.

Yes, but I don't see how this pertains to the quality of education. It's entirely possible to sell a low-quality product and become a market leader ... McDonalds, Walmart, and Microsoft are clear examples.

Instructor training must be adaquate as morbidity and mortality rates are falling not rising.

Either that or it's tougher to kill a diver than many people assume it is. The relevent question is this ... Is training that is adequate to keep you alive the same as adequate diver education? I would say the answer depends on who you ask.

Readyness to be an instructor is a judgement call and the prerequisites are just a line drawn in the sand as there has to be a line somewhere.

The prerequisites are minimums.

Not everyone that meets the minimum prerequisites is ready to be an instructor.

Instructor training prepares you to start teaching, not to know everything.

I would only add readiness to be an instructor depends on your motives for becoming one, and your willingness to put effort into your classes. Regardless of agency, prerequisites, prior training, or experience ... the quality of instruction is determined by the amount of effort the instructor puts into the class. To my concern, those who put minimal effort into becoming an instructor, and who only teach to the minimum standards, are not ready to be an instructor.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[FatCat]

No... fortunately (?) they seem to survive. But they do seem to kill alot of the corals and life (in the tropical waters anyway). What is your point?
I'm guessing that this was meant to be a "snide" commentary to Mike F's prior post ("Yeah, right!). If so, please reconsider your position. I noticed that you are a DM/AI/DI (per your profile) with 201-500 dives. No offense meant, but I think Mike has a better handle on this than you and he is way more qualified in any case.

And he's deliberately being a grouch. I think he does it to get his point across. Which is fine. BTW, do you know what my qualifications are? Clairvoyant are you? Do you know how I teach? Where I teach? In which circumstances? How much time I spend on a course?

You don't mean any offense, but you're telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. So when am I permitted to take offense exactly?

Scratch that, it's not even worth arguing about.

Most of you people are US based. This means you're all nitpicking about subtle differences in training systems that are all clones. PADI, NAUI, SSI, IDEA, even the rec training from IANTD doesn't differ all that much from PADI's from what I've seen. (Notice the verb use? "Seen" as in witnessed, I sat through a few OWD classes with a couple of IANTD instructors I know).

You'd have to see a CMAS course to believe there's worse than RSTC training. Deco diving from first go, breath-holding on compressed gas, first level course without any skills whatsoever. Buoyancy? What's that? They call a BC a lifejacket. I'm thrilled that there is something like EN standards now.

But seriously, an instructor can only do so much. If an OWD student can clear his mask while swimming (mostly) neutrally, can do a reg recovery while swimming and can control his buoyancy to a degree where he can prevent an uncontrolled ascent and where he doesn't crawl along on the bottom, I'm satisfied. I'm not content with students who can only do their skills kneeling on the bottom. I'm totally with Mike on that one.

PADI standards don't oblige me to do open water skills kneeling on the bottom either.

Has it ever occured to any of you that accidents sometimes are nothing more than accidents. Or that accidents happen because people overestimate their own skills. Or because sometimes people are plain stupid. Why always point the finger at instructors and agencies. Are you so immature that you can't live with the concept of personal responsability? Do you live in kindergarten?

But hey, what do I know?

 

[Scubakevdm]

you're all nitpicking about subtle differences in training systems that are all clones. PADI, NAUI, SSI, IDEA, even the rec training from IANTD doesn't differ all that much from PADI's from what I've seen. (Notice the verb use? "Seen" as in witnessed, I sat through a few OWD classes with a couple of IANTD instructors I know).

I agree.
Beyond the fact that we offer YMCA, PADI and IANTD instruction at this shop, I also am afforded some additional perspective. Classes from all over the place come here to do their OW 3&4. I get to see alot of different instructors from alot of different agencies and the "fruits" of their endeavors. Also, I am fortunate enough to see a whole bunch of refferals, again from a wide variety of agencies and instructors.
It is my experience that there is not a whole lot of difference between the agencies, BUT you can sure tell which instructors give a crap about teaching someone how to dive. Granted, some of the students sometimes present a challenge, but its really not that much more difficult to teach someone how to dive versus teaching them how to not be killed.
Mike and I have discussed this at length on a number of occasions. Somehow, in spite of this, he has grown on me. Probably because we are working towards the same end.

 

[Mako Mark]

To my concern, those who put minimal effort into becoming an instructor, and who only teach to the minimum standards, are not ready to be an instructor.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

but if you move the minimum, it still remains the minimum and remember that fifty percent of instructors are below average.

The whole argument about the hamburger is one of those topics that has been around forever, but what I dont understand is what is wrong with hamburgers?? Hamburgers are pretty popular.

The general public is expecting less out of diving and expecting to put less into their dive training. I see nothing wrong with that as long as it doesnt compromise safety.

Multi media and teaching techniques have evolved to make learning more efficient, so academics have been streamlined, but in water training has remained virtually unchanged since JC was in shorts. If anything, skills have been added and become more realistic.

Mikes indignant rants about trim and kneeling have been a source of mirth for me for a long time, and while I know he is right: (IT WOULD BE GREAT FOR EVERYONE TO BE AN EXPERT DIVER), by the time they are first certified, it is unrealistic, utopian and frankly unnessicary. Only a few can be experts, but that should not exclude the rest from participating. Expertise only comes through participation.

The guys Mike saw on TV lastnight may not have looked pretty, but who said it has to look pretty, at least the guys got out there, and they obviously came back...

Mike, I didnt see the program, but I do know the sort of program you mean, I usually cringe when I see divers on TV for the same reason as you, but you should consider yourself the Gourmet of diving. You just dont like hamburgers or newbie vacation divers, however it would be a shame to allow elitism or snobbery to become part of diving.

 

[Mako Mark]

Somehow, in spite of this, he has grown on me. Probably because we are working towards the same end.

You are saying Mike is like wetsuit fungus??? he grows on you???


( I agree, we are on the same page, but sometimes I think one of us has the book upside down and whe cant figure out who it is)