Innovation in diving

[gianaameri]

I assumed you weren't being sarcastic. It definitely wasn't a simple dive for someone learning the ropes, and it was definitely at the edge of what I felt comfortable with without an instructor....but I knew that my training so far, my drills, and my buddy could allow us to perform a safe, secure exit. I was never afraid in the class, but I was distinctly aware of how far back we were....and how deep we were, and the impending deco obligation. It added a lot of very real stress.

As for the drills, all of ours were simulated. The instructor made it a point that he would NOT touch our air supply, and would ONLY touch our lights to turn them off....but he would tell us beforehand. In Apprentice/Full Cave, my primary was off and I had a blackout mask on....but only so the instructor could have a little more light in an effort to keep an eye on me/us. As for purposefully silting out the cave, that seems fairly irresponsible. One of the pretty things in many of the caves I dive are the silt formations. Also, silting them up means silt in them for (potentially) days. It also adds a level of danger to the training that is simply NOT necessary when a blackout mask would do just as well (if not better).

Referring to your explanation of your statement, then yes....I agree with what you meant, but not how you said it. It seemed like you were saying diving beyond your cert was ALWAYS a bad idea, despite having an instructor. It made me wonder how anybody would ever GET certified

The best instructors I have had in various disciplines would all be deemed highly irresponsible based on the generally accepted standards. They are quite "special."

 

[nimoh]

My statement was colored by the fact that the OP did not appear much of a cave diver based on his comments/posts... hence my thoughts he would not be competent to save himself on a "trust me" dive with an instructor. However, if he is competent to save himself in the caves he dives with such instructor if the instructor were to disappear, then why not!

No sarcasm on the 490 meters. It is a serious penetration on a cave course and it took me many dives after my Full Cave course to feel comfortable with that. We are all different... but then so are the caves (or we are all equal, but only "more or less").

You are the OP

 

[gianaameri]

You are the OP

The OP I was referring to is the one I was responding to with my comment.

This thread is all over the place anyway, maybe time to bring it back on course and summarise:

1. Tony Chaney said that I made a piss-poor decision for diving without a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer for a cave dive which I had planned not to require any deco and could have not required any deco even if I emptied my tanks during the dive (the electronics I had forgotten in the garage...).
2. I asked what emergency could a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer have saved my life from in that particular dive, and he could not come up with any.
3. Then he said something about the Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have prevented an emergency, but he did not say which or how.
4. Then after a bit of ramble ramble he basically said I dive with too much gas.

I am none the wiser than where we started, and maybe we should call it the day on this thread.

So, unless someone can post exactly which emergency a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have saved my life from in relation to my specific dive as planned and done (i.e. a dive impossible to enter into deco), I bail-out and this is my last post on the topic.

 

[victorzamora]

OP stands for "Original Poster" and considering you were the Original Poster, that means it's you. There is no other OP. You can't be referring to another one. YOU are the OP. It's funny, because you said about the OP what some here might be thinking.

As far as the emergencies go, you refused to let up on the fact that it COULD be done if you knew it well. Tony said it depended on the cave profile. You said it was shallower, further back than someone here (Omisson, maybe?) believed was available in your area. The emergency presented that WOULD have lead to the need for a gauge of some sort was thwarted by your claim of such a shallow cave. This was the pivotal point....the cave dive without gauges was dumb. However, it was tolerably so IF the cave you're claiming to have been diving exists....a claim you assert to be true while others assert to be not true.

Having said that, I AM a Full Cave diver. I trained under Edd Sorenson and his head instructor, Michal Turek. I can post my cert numbers if you really need to see them. Heck, I can post scans of my card if you need proof. My lack of knowledge about your area is due to lack of knowledge about YOUR AREA, not cave diving in general. So, if you would be kind enough to message me the name of (and information about, if you don't mind) your super shallow Mallorcan cave, this argument can be put to rest once and for all. I shall not disclose the name of the cave on here, but will simply state that I've verified that a profile similar to the one you're discussing exists in the area you claim it to exist in....validating your point.

Completely off topic (or back on it?) it's sad that what could've been a useful thread about innovation vs idiocy in diving has turned into a pissing contest about gauges being necessary or not. I think that there are a lot of merits to the discussion that this COULD have been, which was the discussion that forked this from another thread....but I doubt it'll ever work properly without the MAJOR help of a mod, and maybe even being posted in Tek-to-Tek, due to the controversial nature of things that will undoubtedly be brought up.

 

[gianaameri]

OP stands for "Original Poster" and considering you were the Original Poster, that means it's you. There is no other OP. You can't be referring to another one. YOU are the OP. It's funny, because you said about the OP what some here might be thinking.

As far as the emergencies go, you refused to let up on the fact that it COULD be done if you knew it well. Tony said it depended on the cave profile. You said it was shallower, further back than someone here (Omisson, maybe?) believed was available in your area. The emergency presented that WOULD have lead to the need for a gauge of some sort was thwarted by your claim of such a shallow cave. This was the pivotal point....the cave dive without gauges was dumb. However, it was tolerably so IF the cave you're claiming to have been diving exists....a claim you assert to be true while others assert to be not true.

Having said that, I AM a Full Cave diver. I trained under Edd Sorenson and his head instructor, Michal Turek. I can post my cert numbers if you really need to see them. Heck, I can post scans of my card if you need proof. My lack of knowledge about your area is due to lack of knowledge about YOUR AREA, not cave diving in general. So, if you would be kind enough to message me the name of (and information about, if you don't mind) your super shallow Mallorcan cave, this argument can be put to rest once and for all. I shall not disclose the name of the cave on here, but will simply state that I've verified that a profile similar to the one you're discussing exists in the area you claim it to exist in....validating your point.

Completely off topic (or back on it?) it's sad that what could've been a useful thread about innovation vs idiocy in diving has turned into a pissing contest about gauges being necessary or not. I think that there are a lot of merits to the discussion that this COULD have been, which was the discussion that forked this from another thread....but I doubt it'll ever work properly without the MAJOR help of a mod, and maybe even being posted in Tek-to-Tek, due to the controversial nature of things that will undoubtedly be brought up.

I did not pick the title of this post.

There is no innovation in what I did.

I only dove the cave without electronics because I forgot them, otherwise they don't bother me to have them on the arm.

It was a calculated risk, as explained.

You need the cartography for the cave to verify the profile and you need to dive the cave.

If you do not believe anything I said, then don't.

 

[nimoh]

I did not pick the title of this post.

There is no innovation in what I did.

I only dove the cave without electronics because I forgot them, otherwise they don't bother me to have them on the arm.

It was a calculated risk, as explained.

You need the cartography for the cave to verify the profile and you need to dive the cave.

If you do not believe anything I said, then don't.

I thought you bailed out on this thread?

 

[victorzamora]

I did not pick the title of this post. There is no innovation in what I did.

I didn't mean it like that. In the thread that this one split from, there was a little side track about innovators and not being stuck in the box. It's a shame that one didn't take off. That's all I meant, not that you chose it or it's your fault for the tangent.

As for not believing you, I do....as I have no way of knowing what the caves in Mallorca are like. If I were in your situation, it'd be hard for me to call the dive. That shallow, with that mix, I don't think there's anything TOO wrong with diving a very conservative dive. I probably wouldn't. I sure wouldn't tell someone else to (not that you did, I'm just saying). But I don't think it was the worst thing anybody has ever done, nor is it dumber than some of the stuff I've done underwater (poor decisions before I knew any better).

 

[TONY CHANEY]

The OP I was referring to is the one I was responding to with my comment.

This thread is all over the place anyway, maybe time to bring it back on course and summarise:

1. Tony Chaney said that I made a piss-poor decision for diving without a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer for a cave dive which I had planned not to require any deco and could have not required any deco even if I emptied my tanks during the dive (the electronics I had forgotten in the garage...).
2. I asked what emergency could a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer have saved my life from in that particular dive, and he could not come up with any.
3. Then he said something about the Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have prevented an emergency, but he did not say which or how.
4. Then after a bit of ramble ramble he basically said I dive with too much gas.

I am none the wiser than where we started, and maybe we should call it the day on this thread.

So, unless someone can post exactly which emergency a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have saved my life from in relation to my specific dive as planned and done (i.e. a dive impossible to enter into deco), I bail-out and this is my last post on the topic.

1) you are the OP.
2) Wrong. I clearly said that I consider your decision to dive, in a cave, with a DPV and solo without any bottom timer or depth guage piss poor. It was only much, much later that you decided to justify your decision by adding additional stuff like, known cave you have dived 100s of times, how shallow it was etc. You also added your BS of hand over hand while counting 1001, 1002 , 1003 etc. You still say that you knew the cave but also talked about a section that you have never been in.

3) pertaining to your 2, 3 and summary...I never said that a bottom timer, depth guage or computer could save you in an emergency situation. I said that it could prevent the emergency situation.

4) I was making a joke pertaining to just how shallow the dive was and bringing that much crap to do it.

Now for you to say that I am not a cave diver because I can't find the cave you refering to on the internet is pretty stupid. To be very honest I never even looked for it and I sure as hell have no knowledge of all the caves in Europe. I have never had the pleasure of diving in Europe. So if I describe 3 caves (a friend I named them BTW) in Okinawa, JP do you really think you would know them. I bet not. So does that mean that you are not a cave diver? No. I do believe that you are a cave diver and gave you credit to that fact before. I just clearly stated that you made, what I consider, a piss poor decision and I still do. So have I made piss poor decisions? Yes. One difference between you and I is that if I make a bad decision I might post it so others will not do likewise. You, on the other hand post a piss poor decision and others might try to do likewise. We could have ended this long ago if you would have just said, when I called you on it, "yea, looking back it was not a very good decision." Please just stop trying to sell your decision...nobody is buying it.

 

[gianaameri]

1) you are the OP.

NOPE. I did not start this thread and did not give it the title "Innovation in diving."

There is no "innovation" here. Just the description of a calculated risk I took on a particular day for a particular dive.

1) you are the OP.
2) Wrong. I clearly said that I consider your decision to dive, in a cave, with a DPV and solo without any bottom timer or depth guage piss poor. It was only much, much later that you decided to justify your decision by adding additional stuff like, known cave you have dived 100s of times, how shallow it was etc. You also added your BS of hand over hand while counting 1001, 1002 , 1003 etc. You still say that you knew the cave but also talked about a section that you have never been in.

3) pertaining to your 2, 3 and summary...I never said that a bottom timer, depth guage or computer could save you in an emergency situation. I said that it could prevent the emergency situation.

4) I was making a joke pertaining to just how shallow the dive was and bringing that much crap to do it.

Now for you to say that I am not a cave diver because I can't find the cave you refering to on the internet is pretty stupid. To be very honest I never even looked for it and I sure as hell have no knowledge of all the caves in Europe. I have never had the pleasure of diving in Europe. So if I describe 3 caves (a friend I named them BTW) in Okinawa, JP do you really think you would know them. I bet not. So does that mean that you are not a cave diver? No. I do believe that you are a cave diver and gave you credit to that fact before. I just clearly stated that you made, what I consider, a piss poor decision and I still do. So have I made piss poor decisions? Yes. One difference between you and I is that if I make a bad decision I might post it so others will not do likewise. You, on the other hand post a piss poor decision and others might try to do likewise. We could have ended this long ago if you would have just said, when I called you on it, "yea, looking back it was not a very good decision." Please just stop trying to sell your decision...nobody is buying it.

Looking backwards and forward the decision and calculated risk I took on the day was the correct one.

Would I not bring along in the future a Dive Computer/Bottom Timers for a similar profile/run in the cave?

NO, no benefit not to wear one on the arm anyway as a matter of course. I would bring Dive Computer/Bottom Timers and use them as a tool as normal on all dives.

Would I do a similar profile/run in the cave if (hope not) I forget (a second time) electronics in the garage in the future?

I do not know. I will make a risk assessment on the day and make a decision.

Seems like a heck of a lot of equipment: rebreather, two side mount tanks, EN 32 and a DPV for a cave system that is not deep enough to even to go into deco. Who in the heck brings that much equipment to a cave system that is only 18 meters deep? Really, EN 32 for a 18 meter max depth dive? So what was your orignal dive plan...a 7 mile push?

Please post the name of the cave and prove me wrong. I'll be the first to say that I was wrong.

OK, let's assume that everything was as Gianaameri says it is. I would love to dive this cave, so which cave is it? Gianaameri you can feel free to PM me and I will tell nobody...just one caver to another.

1) Cave diving is not outside the "realm of scuba 101" but an addition to the basic rules. No one has ever said, "those rules are useless in the caves except for a snorkle." So with your mind set you knew that your scooter would not breakdown? You also talked about, "then went exploring a line the very last bit (leading to a small dry chamber) I never dared to follow before with the rebreather due to size/buoyancy considerations." So you did not know the line. Right?

2) There are no depth markings on any cave line I have ever seen. Care to explain or please tell us what cave you were in?

3) Good question as to the line and the computer reading different depths. As for me, I will verify the depth with my backup computer. Which I always carrie. Sorry to inform you but your mind cannot be more acturate than a computer or depth guage and no training group will ever tell you to dive without either. If you don't think that your mind is less acurate, asked anyone with a few hundred dives about the times that they thought the right direction was this way but the compass said differently. Why do you think that pilots learn instruments only training? Your mind and eyes will fool you sometimes.

---------- Post added January 4th, 2014 at 05:05 PM ----------




OK, I'll play. I agree with you that there is no dive that I will not do solo...I am trained for for self efficancy and I do not rely upon a buddy to save my butt. So, as I have in the past, showed up at a dive site and buddy could not make it. Do I call the dive? No. Now, if I show up at a dive site and my gear is not there or or broken beyond field repair...I walk away from the dive. It really is that simple. There was really no dive plan in the case stated above.

I cannot believe that you are still trying to downplay / justify your decision to dive without a bottom timer, depth guage or computer. You have no way of knowing about nitrogen, oxygen, depth or time. You also failed to tell me what cave you were diving that has depth markings on the line. You act like you knew the cave but also talked about being into a new section that before you have not entered due to the size of the RB. You also stress about putting other lives at risk during rescues but I guess the rules don't apply to you. Care to explain why you don't post your dive on CDF?

OK I'll play...which cave?

The irritant is that some/many expect a Cave Diver (me) to provide information about a Cave he/she (I) is (am) diving, and, exploring, and under exploration - and on the internet and to strangers!!!

You are either out of your mind - or you are not a Cave Diver (no matter how many cave C-cards you got and from whom).

Go and ask Jim Wyatt and Ed Sorenson (all names of "famous" people I do not know and never met mentioned in this thread by self-alleged "Cave Divers" to "prove" themselves/something or aggrandise or impress...) for details of the cave they (Jim Wyatt and Ed Sorenson) are exploring and their (Jim Wyatt and Ed Sorenson) cartography and see what they tell you (no to mention the risk that an idiot having received or read the cave information in/from/through this forum could try a similar dive without the knowledge and the skills in his/her misconceived self-belief such idiot is a "Cave Diver" instead).

 

[TONY CHANEY]

This really just too good to be true. It gets better and better with each and every post. Hell, at this point I really look forward to reading this thread every day. So now it is no longer just a cave dive but it an "exploration dive" and therefore it has to remain hush hush. So here we are at a point to where you have said that I must not be a cave diver because I could not locate the cave site on the internet. (I never even looked for it). And now we are entertained with the new piece of information that it is an exploration cave and prevents you from telling us the name of the cave.