Innovation in diving

[gianaameri]

Seems like a heck of a lot of equipment: rebreather, two side mount tanks, EN 32 and a DPV for a cave system that is not deep enough to even to go into deco. Who in the heck brings that much equipment to a cave system that is only 18 meters deep? Really, EN 32 for a 18 meter max depth dive? So what was your orignal dive plan...a 7 mile push?

Please post the name of the cave and prove me wrong. I'll be the first to say that I was wrong.

Yep, I have been "criticised" before for carrying too much gas.

I do not mind that and it makes me happy (and smile)!

Tony - you are not a Cave Diver, but either way, let us make our acquaintance and get it over with:

1. If you cannot find it, you can't dive it.
2. If you have to ask, you are not ready.
3. If you are not ready, don't do it.

If I have to tell you this, you are not a Cave Diver (if you believe you are, good for you!).

Now, wanna dive caves? - Go find one!

Please don't ask again (and carry your own gas because if you don't carry enough those who carry "too much gas" do that for them-SELVES and not for you)!

 

[nimoh]

Training usually occurs at very limited penetrations following drills in the dry and theory.

Personally, I never went beyond my personal comfort level during courses (i.e. at no point in time I put myself in a situation where had the instructor dropped dead I would have not been able to complete the dive "solo").

A good instructor won't put you in that situation either (although he will push your limits, physical and especially mental).

that doesn't change the fact that you are diving a level above your current certification level with an instructor to which you gave a blanket "Now, that is a bad idea!" response.

 

[victorzamora]

My training wasn't conducted to "very limited penetrations." My cave training was conducted on a full dive to the cert I was striving towards. My Full Cave class included jumps, thirds, planning, etc. It also involved multiple failures from the point of max penetration on back. What my instructor said was the way in would be "real" and on the way out, he'd be "mean." It gave me a lot of confidence when he induced an unrealistic amount of failures in an unrealistically short amount of time, and at a VERY inconvenient point in the dive (right after turn) and we were still able to exit safely without any help from the instructor. Actually, "we were able to exit DESPITE the instructor" is a more accurate statement there. We never proceded on a dive we weren't ready for, based on previous dives. At no point was I unable to exit safely. However, I was not certified until the end of the course.

 

[gianaameri]

My training wasn't conducted to "very limited penetrations." My cave training was conducted on a full dive to the cert I was striving towards. My Full Cave class included jumps, thirds, planning, etc. It also involved multiple failures from the point of max penetration on back. What my instructor said was the way in would be "real" and on the way out, he'd be "mean." It gave me a lot of confidence when he induced an unrealistic amount of failures in an unrealistically short amount of time, and at a VERY inconvenient point in the dive (right after turn) and we were still able to exit safely without any help from the instructor. Actually, "we were able to exit DESPITE the instructor" is a more accurate statement there. We never proceded on a dive we weren't ready for, based on previous dives. At no point was I unable to exit safely. However, I was not certified until the end of the course.

What was the max. penetration on your cave course (just to put some actual numbers in the context)?

---------- Post added January 10th, 2014 at 10:54 AM ----------

that doesn't change the fact that you are diving a level above your current certification level with an instructor to which you gave a blanket "Now, that is a bad idea!" response.

I had no prior experience in a cave at all, so I was well beyond "a level above" my then current certification.

I was starting from scratch in caves.

 

[nimoh]

What was the max. penetration on your cave course (just to put some actual numbers in the context)?

While I can't speak for Victor, I don't know the max penetration of my dives in cave class since all dives were turned on either gas or time.

I had no prior experience in a cave at all, so I was well beyond "a level above" my then current certification.

I was starting from scratch in caves.

So I guess we agree on that then.

 

[gianaameri]

While I can't speak for Victor, I don't know the max penetration of my dives in cave class since all dives were turned on either gas or time.

So I guess we agree on that then.

What would you estimate your maximum penetration was then?

As to the rest, I am happy to agree that I was wholly untrained in cave diving when I started cave diving, and, notwithstanding that, I was adequately prepared (theory and dry-drills) beforehand (to my personal satisfaction) by the instructor prior to the very first cave dive to be able to exit the cave "solo" in the event of the sudden and unexpected demise of the instructor.

Had I not received any such prior training, I would have made a big mess of the dive, endangering myself and possibly the instructor, and in any event I would have been at serious personal risk.

 

[victorzamora]

What was the max. penetration on your cave course (just to put some actual numbers in the context)?

I think my max penetration for full cave was approximately 1300ft, max depth was 92ft. During full cave, every dive had a jump and/or a T, and every dive went to thirds (or shy of thirds, based upon cave conditions/planning). I know this isn't far back compared to other caves, but consider that I'm diving OC, no scooter, no stage, in a very deep cave. My buddy retook Full Cave in Mexico (to get a different perspective and training in a different harness) and said the course there was similar to the course I took. He penetrated MUCH deeper than I did, but only because of the shallower profile. On the deeper caves, his penetration was limited by gas consumption.

I had no prior experience in a cave at all, so I was well beyond "a level above" my then current certification.
I was starting from scratch in caves.

I honestly can't understand what this means.

What nimoh was getting at was the fact that you made a blanket statement that diving beyond your current level is always bad, even if with an instructor. nimoh's point was that you dive beyond your certification level in ALL classes. You stated it was wrong to dive one step beyond your certification with an instructor, but that's what is required for learning.

I agree that taking an OW-only diver on a triple stage, double scooter, trimix dive to Eagle's Nest is a bad idea. However, I see nothing wrong with an Apprentice Cave diver hiring a Full Cave Instructor as a guide for dive beyond Apprentice certification....or a Basic/Intro to Cave diver hiring an instructor as a guide and going to thirds. This is the same as a non-cavern diver being taken into the cavern by their cave instructor before they get certified.

 

[gianaameri]

I think my max penetration for full cave was approximately 1300ft, max depth was 92ft. During full cave, every dive had a jump and/or a T, and every dive went to thirds (or shy of thirds, based upon cave conditions/planning). I know this isn't far back compared to other caves, but consider that I'm diving OC, no scooter, no stage, in a very deep cave. My buddy retook Full Cave in Mexico (to get a different perspective and training in a different harness) and said the course there was similar to the course I took. He penetrated MUCH deeper than I did, but only because of the shallower profile. On the deeper caves, his penetration was limited by gas consumption.



I honestly can't understand what this means.

What nimoh was getting at was the fact that you made a blanket statement that diving beyond your current level is always bad, even if with an instructor. nimoh's point was that you dive beyond your certification level in ALL classes. You stated it was wrong to dive one step beyond your certification with an instructor, but that's what is required for learning.

I agree that taking an OW-only diver on a triple stage, double scooter, trimix dive to Eagle's Nest is a bad idea. However, I see nothing wrong with an Apprentice Cave diver hiring a Full Cave Instructor as a guide for dive beyond Apprentice certification....or a Basic/Intro to Cave diver hiring an instructor as a guide and going to thirds. This is the same as a non-cavern diver being taken into the cavern by their cave instructor before they get certified.

Yes, 390 meters penetration is quite a serious dive.

How many were you in the course?

Nothing wrong with an Apprentice Cave diver hiring a Full Cave Instructor as a guide for dive beyond Apprentice certification....or a Basic/Intro to Cave diver hiring an instructor as a guide and going to thirds - provided such Apprentice/Basic/Intro to Cave dive is capable of existing the cave on his own and safely in case of separation or the sudden demise of the instructor (my opinion, clearly anybody is free to do what they want).

 

[nimoh]

What would you estimate your maximum penetration was then?

guessing a swimming speed of about 50ft/min, and if I recall correctly, the longest dive was about 25 minutes, penetration would have been about 1200 feet.

I think the last dive which was an experience dive (no drills or simulated failures) might have been a bit longer, and was turned on gas. Without my log book in front of me, I'm not sure of the dive time.

 

[gianaameri]

guessing a swimming speed of about 50ft/min, and if I recall correctly, the longest dive was 25 minutes, penetration would have been about 1200 feet.

I think the last dive which was an experience dive (no drills or simulated failures) might have been a bit longer, and was turned on gas. Without my log book in front of me, I'm not sure of the dive time.

How many were you in the course and the drills were done at what penetration (roughly)?