Innovation in diving

[Omisson]

The penetration was 600 meters.

I exceeded 12 meter depth several times. 12 meter depth was the average depth.

The cave (as is the case with many caves) varies in depth throughout its extension. There is about Km 15 of lines and it is still under exploration.

You enter the cave and it goes down to about 12 meters, then you go up to about 10, then down to 14, the for about 250 meters 13, then up to 3 meters, then back down to 15 meters, then up to about 10 meters, then back down to 14 meters, there I turned back so you reverse the lot, and after the 3 meter section went out a different way but it is about the same depths as described before except that at a point it drops to 18 meters, then it goes up to 6 meter, then it drops to 14 meters, then it goes up to about 10, there I surfaced very briefly to 0 (not really a big deal as you purport it to be to go up and then back down on a straight line leading to a chamber), then went back down to 10, then 12, and then slowly exited the cave to 0 meters/surface.

When I go in 2000 meters to the NE there is a drop to 18 meters, then it goes back up to maybe 10, then up and down several times, and when I go in and then E it goes down to 22 meters, and there is the usual ups and downs.

So, there is a lot of "yo-yo" diving or what you call "bounce diving." It is normal in caves (you do not get square profiles).

What surprises me is that you find it so strange to do these type of profiles... maybe the caves you are used to are just like the sea with no ups and downs?

What also surprises me is that you find it strange using 70 bar from each of the two 18 ltr. side-mount tanks (exiting the cave with 150 bar of gas in EACH tank as I did on that dive, very conservatively).

My certifications (a small portion is in my profile on Scubaboard).

Also, quite strange that you find it so unreal that one can do a dive without a Dive Computer or Tables where a deco situation is impossible to achieve given the amount of gas that is being carried AND depth is known.

You seem more a PADI OC diver than a Cave Diver as you seem a bit incredulous that a dive like this can be done and caves like this exist (there are several).

You still haven't named the system. I've dove Ginnie (Devil's Eye and Devils Ear), Peacock, Indian Springs, Little River, Jackson Blue. Every one of them has bounce features-

Since Every cave bounces- the need for dive computers to adjust deco to suit the actual conditions is essential.

 

[gianaameri]

You still haven't named the system. I've dove Ginnie (Devil's Eye and Devils Ear), Peacock, Indian Springs, Little River, Jackson Blue. Every one of them has bounce features-

Since Every cave bounces- the need for dive computers to adjust deco to suit the actual conditions is essential.

If you have done that same dive many times with a dive computer and never required any deco, you pretty much know it does not require deco.

If you know the depths and the run times, you can put the legs in MvPlan and even type a table and run a lot of "what ifs" and see that you do not get into a deco situation.

N32 with average depths of 12 meters and brief excursions to 18 meters you cannot get into a deco situation with 2 x 18 ltr. N32 tanks.

Try Vplanner and MvPlan to simulate if you want.

However, I am not basing what I say on theory.

I have dived that cave 100s of times, and I can tell you the first 600 meters on N32 you do not get into a Deco situation if you stay on the line. This is by doing and following that cave line and that exact up and down profile with the dive computer. Always exited the cave with the dive computer giving me 240' NDL (the max.) and doing dives far longer than the approx. 75 minutes I did on that day.

That is a cave I know. Now, the caves you mentioned, I never dived them, and would not dive them without a dive computer ever, and backup-tables - because I do not personally know these caves and don't have any experience in diving them.

As to the cave name, sorry, it won't be named.

 

[PfcAJ]

You still haven't named the system. I've dove Ginnie (Devil's Eye and Devils Ear), Peacock, Indian Springs, Little River, Jackson Blue. Every one of them has bounce features-

Since Every cave bounces- the need for dive computers to adjust deco to suit the actual conditions is essential.

Oh good grief. You don't need a computer. I've never used a computer EVER in cave diving. Not once. Deep caves, long cave, "yo-yo" caves, traverses, etc. Not once. Depth gauge and a watch is all you need.

---------- Post added January 9th, 2014 at 04:03 PM ----------

And why are you diving Indian as an apprentice? Its 150' deep right off the bat.

 

[victorzamora]

So, there is a lot of "yo-yo" diving or what you call "bounce diving." It is normal in caves (you do not get square profiles).

First of all, it's not "Yo-Yo" diving or "bounce diving." A yo-yo dive is typically a derogatory term used for people incapable of maintaining depth. A bounce dive is a typically derogatory term for someone who goes to a very deep point, and then immediately starts their ascent. This is normally for "personal records" and bragging rights, as well as logging it on their computer and in their log book. Following the profile of the cave is simply following the profile of the cave. You typically can't stay at one depth for too long as natural variations in the cave topology won't allow it.

Also, our incredulity isn't that one CAN do a similar dive. I know for sure, without a doubt, that I could safely perform a dive in Jackson Blue with no need for a computer/depth gauge/tables. Heck, I'd bet I could do 20 dives with no problem. That's got a max depth of 93ft and an average depth of over 60ft (with high flow, no stages, no scooter). Being capable and being smart are NOT the same. I was recently in Florida diving Jackson Blue. I didn't have a computer because I left it at home (8 hours away). Despite the fact that I could've made the dive, I called it. I ended up borrowing somebody else's dive computer and making it....but I wasn't bold enough to think I was better than needing critical gear. I also called a dive when my secondary wouldn't light up (it was left on overnight). My buddy had 6 lights. I borrowed one, and we resumed. I'm not above the standards, and I'm not above safe practices. Edd Sorenson doesn't believe himself to be, and I can guarantee he's a more experienced diver than you.

The other thing you're CLEARLY not grasping is what we're not believing you about. We believe that if your max depth was 1m, you could dive to your heart's conent without a computer. Others on this thread have stated lack of belief of the profile of the cave system you're discussing. Your lack of (inability to) producing the name is what is causing people here to believe your lack of certification/experience.

One VERY ironic note: your signature states "skill and experience are not an acceptable substitute for proper equipment." That is absolutely hilarious, IMHO, since you are claiming that your skill and experience are substitutes for proper equipment.....with a depth gauge/timer of some sort being proper equipment.

 

[nimoh]

Oh good grief. You don't need a computer. I've never used a computer EVER in cave diving. Not once. Deep caves, long cave, yo-yo caves, traverses, etc. Not once. Depth gauge and a watch is all you need.

I wasn't allowed to use a computer in my cave class, just a bottom timer/depth gauge.

 

[gianaameri]

Others on this thread have stated lack of belief of the profile of the cave system you're discussing. Your lack of (inability to) producing the name is what is causing people here to believe your lack of certification/experience.

In respect of the first part of your statement, I suspect it may denote more of a lack of experience and diversity in their (the "others") cave diving...

In respect of the second part of your statement, experience I am constantly building up (and I am the eternal learner), and cave certification I have (but there is a difference between a Cave Diver and a Diver with a Cave Card).

Now, people are free to believe what makes them happiest in their little heads!

 

[Drin]

Depth gauge and a watch is all you need.

What started all this was the OP, who stated in the very first post in this thread that he didn't take a bottom timer with him on the cave dive he claims to have done. He continues to claim that if you know the cave system you're diving a bottom timer isn't required.

-Adrian

After a bit of pondering, I chose NOT to dive rebreather on Primary only (that was a quick and easy decision), unclipped the rebreather from the sidemount harness/buoyancy system, and went diving, on scooter, sidemount, with no Dive Computer, and no Bottom Timer, in a cave (solo).

 

[PfcAJ]

What started all this was the OP, who stated in the very first post in this thread that he didn't take a bottom timer with him on the cave dive he claims to have done. He continues to claim that if you know the cave system you're diving a bottom timer isn't required.

-Adrian

I don't think diving without a bottom timer is a good idea, but I also understand that its possible to have a thorough knowledge of a particular cave. I have that kind of knowledge about a few. At any given point, I know where I am, how deep I am, how long it took to get there, and how long it takes to get out. But I STILL dive with a bottom timer, and I wouldn't sign up for the dive without one.

My above comment was about need of a computer. You don't need a computer to tell you your deco requirements.

 

[gianaameri]

What started all this was the OP, who stated in the very first post in this thread that he didn't take a bottom timer with him on the cave dive he claims to have done. He continues to claim that if you know the cave system you're diving a bottom timer isn't required.

-Adrian

Nope.

If you know the dive profile knowing the cave line and have experience in that cave and know for certain that diving that particular dive profile you CANNOT get in a deco situation (i.e. you can run out of gas, but still not get into a deco situation) - then and only then it can be done.

I do not understand why it is something so difficult to understand for a cave diver.

The cave line gives you the exact dive profile to follow beforehand and during the dive.

 

[Drin]

My above comment was about need of a computer. You don't need a computer to tell you your deco requirements.

I agree wholeheartedly and completely. I just have a concern over him not taking a bottom timer and insisting he doesn't need one.

-Adrian