Innovation in diving

[ScubaToneDog]

I thought we all learned the futility of attemping to elicit reason from gianaameri after the O2 narcosis thread... but apparently not.

Its not futile....its fun to read his responses. More fun than playing Candy Crush on my phone. But lately he is verbally spinning his wheels. Feels like I'm stuck on level 112 again... lol

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[gianaameri]

Its not futile....its fun to read his responses. More fun than playing Candy Crush on my phone. But lately he is verbally spinning his wheels. Feels like I'm stuck on level 112 again... lol

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

It is fun to see how Trimix Certified Divers cannot do simple math to derive time from SAC and Depth...

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 02:49 AM ----------

Giana,

You said there was no emergency situation that could have presented itself for which a watch/bottom timer, dive deco table, or computer would be necessary on your dive?

Here's one example:

You go on your dive.... got all the way back 400 meters on your scooter and it puttered out. Its dead, threw a bearing. How long do you fiddle with it to try and get it to work?

Finally realizing its really not gonna start again... you have to turn around and SWIM out.... hopefully the last sputters or crash of the DPV didn't silt the place out.

Now you must swim the 1300 feet out of the cave? How long time wise is that? Was that "time" calculated in your run plan? Do you now have Deco? If so, how much? You don't have a table to consult or even if you did, a watch to measure things by... hopefully no other issues present themselves like a blown o-ring, other valve or regulator malfunction...

This is by no means the only easily identifiable emergency you seem to have overlooked, but it is the most obvious.

What agency certified you in DPV Cave?

Dan-O

Dead scooter is just hanged on the line to be recovered later on a scooter recovery dive using another scooter. Then, you simply swim out of the cave following the line.

Although it is a "guesstimate," a cave diver would ensure he/she always has enough gas to swim out of the cave in case of scooter failure (and/or silt-out).

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 02:52 AM ----------

More than likely none but it is more to the point that they can give you the knowledge to PREVENT the emergency. And in my world, as well as others, prevention is the key. Proactive vice reactive.

OBTW, since we are getting to know each other....did you get banned from Cave Diver's Forum? I really miss your words of "wisdom" on there.

Who were you certified for full cave with? Maybe we have friends.

Enjoyed the video? I am not only certified to do the dive, but, I can do the dive, I can do it safely and even while recording. Care to post one of your own?

It really is getting hard to do a battle of knowledge with somebody so well unarmed...but I am really trying.

---------- Post added January 7th, 2014 at 06:46 PM ----------



No you did not! You stated before that you "estimated" the time. Which is a nice way of saying, "I guesstimated." Everybody can see thru this BS.

We guesstimate a lot of things cave diving. We operate without certainties most of the times.

My videos are in my forum, and as I said Patrick posted one video on youtube (links on plenty cave/tec forums).

I no longer post on CDF (my choice).

 

[victorzamora]

Gian, forgive me if I'm misreading this.....but it seems like they're asking what you would do in terms of your deco obligation. So, let's make it more clear.

If after all of your piddling around, your scooter died and silted out the whole cave at max penetration on your last "excursion" from the gold line......how do you calculate and accomodate your deco obligation?

 

[ScubaToneDog]

Sorry Gian, that must be a cave thing. In my basic OW thru Instructor training we don't teach guesstimation. We teach dive planning and contingency planning. Both of which require depth and time monitoring.

As far as figuring your time out based on Sac rate and depth, I would really like you to break it down on the swim out, assuming you took 2 minutes to figure the scooter was shot and there was a silt out of say 10 meters.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[shoredivr]

Back in the OP Gian mentions as part of this OC dive exploring a narrower part of the cave he had never attempted before with his bulky rebreather, but now without depth gauge or timer, he does so.

Guess he just counted breath cycles for time past the restiction. Not aware of how one can monitor depth in unknown territory without a depth gauge. So awareness of depth was missing from this part of the dive, which counters Gian's insisting that he knew his depth from the line.

Seems a hubris filled choice if an actual dive.

 

[gianaameri]

Gian, forgive me if I'm misreading this.....but it seems like they're asking what you would do in terms of your deco obligation. So, let's make it more clear.

If after all of your piddling around, your scooter died and silted out the whole cave at max penetration on your last "excursion" from the gold line......how do you calculate and accomodate your deco obligation?

Because the average depth in the section/run of the cave is 12 meters, with N32 and 2 x 18 ltr. steel tanks, filled at 220 bar at the start of the dive, if the scooter dies 600 meters into the cave (my maximum penetration on that dive), and the cave silts-out completely (hypothetically, for the sake of conversation, slowing down my exit), and I were to empty completely the tanks to exit the cave, I would not incur in any deco obligations.

A Dive Computer would not have been necessary on that dive as planned to calculate Deco insofar I had already planned the dive such that I would not incur Deco in a worst case scenario.

The line provides the path to follow and the depth limits.

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 09:16 AM ----------

Sorry Gian, that must be a cave thing. In my basic OW thru Instructor training we don't teach guesstimation. We teach dive planning and contingency planning. Both of which require depth and time monitoring.

As far as figuring your time out based on Sac rate and depth, I would really like you to break it down on the swim out, assuming you took 2 minutes to figure the scooter was shot and there was a silt out of say 10 meters.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

I "gastimate."

Sometimes cavers gastimate wrong and run out of gas.

A cave course will teach you how to manage and plan your gas (given your dive plan max. penetration and average depth and other difficulties you may encounter...).

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 09:17 AM ----------

Back in the OP Gian mentions as part of this OC dive exploring a narrower part of the cave he had never attempted before with his bulky rebreather, but now without depth gauge or timer, he does so.

Guess he just counted breath cycles for time past the restiction. Not aware of how one can monitor depth in unknown territory without a depth gauge. So awareness of depth was missing from this part of the dive, which counters Gian's insisting that he knew his depth from the line.

Seems a hubris filled choice if an actual dive.

I went up to the surface in a dry-chamber following a line. At 0 meters, I was off-gassing - not on-gassing. It is a non-issue.

---------- Post added January 8th, 2014 at 10:49 AM ----------

Enjoyed the video? I am not only certified to do the dive, but, I can do the dive, I can do it safely and even while recording. Care to post one of your own?

Found the link to Patrick's video for you: Europe 2012 Part Two - YouTube (Patrick was with me).

 

[boulderjohn]

I have barely followed this discussion, but I just want to remind people that according to the PADI RDP for EANx 32, the NDL for a 12 meter dive is over 3 hours. The PADI RDP intentionally uses shorter first dive bottom times than is necessary in order to allow the diver back in the water sooner for a second dive.

I was recently working on my scootering skills in a cave (Jackson Blue in Marianna, Florida), and I just went back and forth not far from the entrance, so that if the scooter conked out at the worst possible time, I could swim out easily. The depth of my dive in that section did not vary by more than a few feet. It is a high flow cave with no silt to speak of, so there was no possibility of a silt out. Now, I was fully equipped for the dive with all the instruments I could possibly need, but I just thought I would point out that it is possible to use a scooter safely in a cave that does not have much difference in depth where you are swimming and with no chance of a silt out. I don't know if this was the case here, but it is possible.

 

[gianaameri]

I have barely followed this discussion, but I just want to remind people that according to the PADI RDP for EANx 32, the NDL for a 12 meter dive is over 3 hours. The PADI RDP intentionally uses shorter first dive bottom times than is necessary in order to allow the diver back in the water sooner for a second dive.

I was recently working on my scootering skills in a cave (Jackson Blue in Marianna, Florida), and I just went back and forth not far from the entrance, so that if the scooter conked out at the worst possible time, I could swim out easily. The depth of my dive in that section did not vary by more than a few feet. It is a high flow cave with no silt to speak of, so there was no possibility of a silt out. Now, I was fully equipped for the dive with all the instruments I could possibly need, but I just thought I would point out that it is possible to use a scooter safely in a cave that does not have much difference in depth where you are swimming and with no chance of a silt out. I don't know if this was the case here, but it is possible.

The cave I dive can silt-out to zero vis. No cave exist that I know that cannot.

If you plan your gas such that in the case of a total cave silt-out at the maximum point of penetration with scooter you can still have enough gas to exit, then no problem.

That is how I plan all my cave dives.

Bear in mind that if one dives "solo" like I do (meaning nobody else diving the cave), it is unlikely (especially on rebreather) that the cave will silt-out (other than for some short sections where one makes a mistake or it is inevitable some silting occurrs).

I dive 2000 meters penetration in the cave on scooter and for my plan on rebreather I carry with me 2 x 18 ltr. side-mount, 2 x 3 ltr. O2 backmount, and stage at 600 meters 1 Alu 80, and at 900 meters stage another Alu80. I also stage a back-up scooter at 700 meters (but gas is planned for an exit assuming both scooters fail).

 

[ScubaToneDog]

Gian...gastimate or guesstimate still a guess. So I have my numbers on a contingency plan for the situation posed, waiting to see yours first though. I'll admit was awkward for me using the metric system (us silly imperial's). But I still want to know what yours was and how much of the 1/3 reserve you came out with. I applied an uncertainty equation based on gas, depth and speed using fractional and percentage to derive my answer. I think its fair to assume you are a calm diver with good form and skill set so my numbers were based on conservative and ultra high liberal swim and problem solving times (+- 2 min). Simply saying you could because you guessed is not an acceptable answer. Numbers please. You don't have to use an uncertainty equation like I did but please show your work.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Sometimes cavers gastimate wrong and run out of gas.

I went up to the surface in a dry-chamber following a line. At 0 meters, I was off-gassing - not on-gassing. It is a non-issue.

We would rather calculate gas requirements that gastimate.

So I am totally sure that you did a saftey stop prior to surfacing in the dry chamber?