Innovation in diving

[PfcAJ]

However, I see nothing wrong with an Apprentice Cave diver hiring a Full Cave Instructor as a guide for dive beyond Apprentice certification....or a Basic/Intro to Cave diver hiring an instructor as a guide and going to thirds. This is the same as a non-cavern diver being taken into the cavern by their cave instructor before they get certified.

Even when the cave is 150' deep and required 100 post full cave dives?

 

[nimoh]

How many were you in the course and the drills were done at what penetration (roughly)?

there were two students (including myself) and most dives were done as a two person team, while some dives included the instructor as part of the team.

Drills were all done during the exit, starting approximately half way back...so probably no further in than 700 feet, but the drills we did at these distances were generally simulated light failures and set up more complicated drills further on.

On some dives when we did more time intensive drills like lost diver search or lost line search, the dive was turned earlier and we were much closer to the exit. I remember during the blindfolded gas sharing exit that I was surprised to find the reel since I thought we were still hundreds of feet from the exit.

 

[gianaameri]

there were two students (including myself) and most dives were done as a two person team, while some dives included the instructor as part of the team.

Drills were all done during the exit, starting approximately half way back...so probably no further in than 700 feet, but the drills we did at these distances were generally simulated light failures and set up more complicated drills further on.

On some dives when we did more time intensive drills like lost diver search or lost line search, the dive was turned earlier and we were much closer to the exit. I remember during the blindfolded gas sharing exit that I was surprised to find the reel since I thought we were still hundreds of feet from the exit.

Entanglement drill where the instructor tied you up real bad and silted up the whole place big time - at what penetration did you do?

Mine was just outside the cavern zone (not that it mattered cause he silted up the cave big time anyway, so forget about daylight).

 

[nimoh]

Entanglement drill where the instructor tied you up real bad and silted up the whole place big time - at what penetration did you do?

Mine was just outside the cavern zone (not that it mattered cause he silted up the cave big time anyway, so forget about daylight).

We were never tied up in the line. I had a few simulated entanglement issues, one in particular was during a zero viz lost line drill. When I found the main line and tied off my spool, and installed a cookie, I forgot to put my marker holder back in my pocket before proceeding to the exit (still with the blackout mask on). As I was swimming by a place where the main line was particularly close to the bottom, my instructor hooked the dangling marker holder into some rock, thus entangling me. This was about 50 feet from the exit.

there was never any silting up of the cave. All zero visibility situations were simulated with blackout masks.

 

[gianaameri]

We were never tied up in the line. I had a few simulated entanglement issues, one in particular was during a zero viz lost line drill. When I found the main line and tied off my spool, and installed a cookie, I forgot to put my marker holder back in my pocket before proceeding to the exit (still with the blackout mask on). As I was swimming by a place where the main line was particularly close to the bottom, my instructor hooked the dangling marker holder into some rock, thus entangling me. This was about 50 feet from the exit.

there was never any silting up of the cave. All zero visibility situations were simulated with blackout masks.

No simulation on mine.

I was badly entangled by the instructor especially the rebreather valves in the back and then the instructor silted-up the cave.

The drill was to cut the main line I was entangled in (he ran a line specially for this drill form the mainline) using two arrows, a spool, and a particular technique, such as not to lose the ability to exit following the line (i.e. if you cut the line improperly then you no longer have a continuous line to the exit which is essential in a silted-up cave).

It took me 50 minutes to complete and I thought I would have done it in a breeze.

Big overconfidence on my part that day and big lesson learned.

Did you do an exit from maximum penetration (200 meters in my drill) using N50 as diluent gas (from a bail-out/deco bottle) for the rebreather and no O2 and no electronics (if you used a rebreather, I did my cave course on rebreather)?

 

[alewar]

The popular caves in my region (flooded mines) are so crowded that you have to book the dive a couple of months in advance. I imagine it would suck if people silt them up on purpose.

 

[gianaameri]

The popular caves in my region (flooded mines) are so crowded that you have to book the dive a couple of months in advance. I imagine it would suck if people silt them up on purpose.

The cave we were in had two entrances (sort of), so for that drill we followed the line to the left and silted up that section of the cave (and we sent in there afterwords a couple of instructors, one dead now on rebreather, who finished the job we had started)... while we normally dove the line going to the right for the other drills/certification dives.

I guess you have to find the right cave for a good cave course. Cannot do it in a too busy cave.

 

[victorzamora]

Yes, 390 meters penetrations is quite a serious dive.

How many were you in the course?

As to the first part, I can't tell if it's sarcasm or not. I'm assuming it's not sarcasm, as I consider it to be a pretty serious dive. Throw in a DPV or a 'breather, or do it in a shallow cave, and then the equation changes. I know my max penetration in Mexico was MUCH higher as my max bottom time was 86 minutes, versus the typical 45 in Florida.

As for the course, there were two of us in Cavern/Intro. Another buddy accompanied me through Apprentice. I was solo for Full Cave.

As for where our failures occurred, many occurred soon after turn. The instructor was NOT nice.

Nothing wrong with an Apprentice Cave diver hiring a Full Cave Instructor as a guide for dive beyond Apprentice certification....or a Basic/Intro to Cave diver hiring an instructor as a guide and going to thirds - provided such Apprentice is capable of existing the cave on his own and safely in case of separation or the sudden demise of the instructor (my opinion, clearly anybody is free to do what they want).

I agree with you on this, then. Your blanket statement was very out of line with my opinion, but this I agree with. I've told many people that they should be prepared to end the dive safely if the instructor has a sudden aneurysm. At no point in my courses did I feel like I was relying on the instructor. In fact, I'm more nervous when I'm with an instructor. I know I'm safe, but I know I'm not perfect yet....and while I'm always striving to get better, I'm just a little more aware of it in front of an instructor.

---------- Post added January 10th, 2014 at 01:26 PM ----------

Even when the cave is 150' deep and required 100 post full cave dives?

That's not really one step beyond cert level. Also, I was making a general statement, there are obvious exceptions. In fact, I think I even mentioned an exception (I may have edited it out).

 

[gianaameri]

As to the first part, I can't tell if it's sarcasm or not. I'm assuming it's not sarcasm, as I consider it to be a pretty serious dive. Throw in a DPV or a 'breather, or do it in a shallow cave, and then the equation changes. I know my max penetration in Mexico was MUCH higher as my max bottom time was 86 minutes, versus the typical 45 in Florida. As for the course, there were two of us in Cavern/Intro. Another buddy accompanied me through Apprentice. I was solo for Full Cave.


I agree with you on this, then. Your blanket statement was very out of line with my opinion, but this I agree with. I've told many people that they should be prepared to end the dive safely if the instructor has a sudden aneurysm. At no point in my courses did I feel like I was relying on the instructor. In fact, I'm more nervous when I'm with an instructor. I know I'm safe, but I know I'm not perfect yet....and while I'm always striving to get better, I'm just a little more aware of it in front of an instructor.

My statement was colored by the fact that the OP did not appear much of a cave diver based on his comments/posts... hence my thoughts he would not be competent to save himself on a "trust me" dive with an instructor. However, if he is competent to save himself in the caves he dives with such instructor if the instructor were to disappear, then why not!

No sarcasm on the 490 meters. It is a serious penetration on a cave course and it took me many dives after my Full Cave course to feel comfortable with that. We are all different... but then so are the caves (or we are all equal, but only "more or less").

 

[victorzamora]

I assumed you weren't being sarcastic. It definitely wasn't a simple dive for someone learning the ropes, and it was definitely at the edge of what I felt comfortable with without an instructor....but I knew that my training so far, my drills, and my buddy could allow us to perform a safe, secure exit. I was never afraid in the class, but I was distinctly aware of how far back we were....and how deep we were, and the impending deco obligation. It added a lot of very real stress.

As for the drills, all of ours were simulated. The instructor made it a point that he would NOT touch our air supply, and would ONLY touch our lights to turn them off....but he would tell us beforehand. In Apprentice/Full Cave, my primary was off and I had a blackout mask on....but only so the instructor could have a little more light in an effort to keep an eye on me/us. As for purposefully silting out the cave, that seems fairly irresponsible. One of the pretty things in many of the caves I dive are the silt formations. Also, silting them up means silt in them for (potentially) days. It also adds a level of danger to the training that is simply NOT necessary when a blackout mask would do just as well (if not better).

Referring to your explanation of your statement, then yes....I agree with what you meant, but not how you said it. It seemed like you were saying diving beyond your cert was ALWAYS a bad idea, despite having an instructor. It made me wonder how anybody would ever GET certified