Innovation in diving

[gianaameri]

This really just too good to be true. It gets better and better with each and every post. Hell, at this point I really look forward to reading this thread every day. So now it is no longer just a cave dive but it an "exploration dive" and therefore it has to remain hush hush. So here we are at a point to where you have said that I must not be a cave diver because I could not locate the cave site on the internet. (I never even looked for it). And now we are entertained with the new piece of information that it is an exploration cave and prevents you from telling us the name of the cave.

I have stated early in the thread (somewhere, sure it is still there if you read it) that it is a cave under exploration.

It is, and when you can find it, you can dive it (and even then it is just a maybe).

The penetration was 600 meters.

I exceeded 12 meter depth several times. 12 meter depth was the average depth.

The cave (as is the case with many caves) varies in depth throughout its extension. There is about Km 15 of lines and it is still under exploration.

You enter the cave and it goes down to about 12 meters, then you go up to about 10, then down to 14, then for about 250 meters 13, then up to 3 meters, then back down to 15 meters, then up to about 10 meters, then back down to 14 meters, there I turned back so you reverse the lot, and after the 3 meter section went out a different way but it is about the same depths as described before except that at a point it drops to 18 meters, then it goes up to 6 meter, then it drops to 14 meters, then it goes up to about 10, there I surfaced very briefly to 0 (not really a big deal as you purport it to be to go up and then back down on a straight line leading to a chamber), then went back down to 10, then 12, and then slowly exited the cave to 0 meters/surface.

When I go in 2000 meters max. penetration (rounding up) to the NE there is a drop to 18 meters, then it goes back up to maybe 10, then up and down several times, and when I go in and then W it goes down to 22 meters, and there is the usual ups and downs.

So, there is a lot of "yo-yo" diving or what you call "bounce diving." It is normal in caves (you do not get square profiles).

What surprises me is that you find it so strange to do these type of profiles... maybe the caves you are used to are just like the sea with no ups and downs?

What also surprises me is that you find it strange using 70 bar from each of the two 18 ltr. side-mount tanks (exiting the cave with 150 bar of gas in EACH tank as I did on that dive, very conservatively).

My certifications (a small portion is in my profile on Scubaboard).

Also, quite strange that you find it so unreal that one can do a dive without a Dive Computer or Tables where a deco situation is impossible to achieve given the amount of gas that is being carried AND depth is known.

You seem more a PADI OC diver than a Cave Diver as you seem a bit incredulous that a dive like this can be done and caves like this exist (there are several).

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Sorry that I missed that before. (See how easy it is to make a mistake)? All caves are still under exploration as far as I know. So is this cave like WKPP where only a selected few can go?

 

[gianaameri]

Sorry that I missed that before. (See how easy it is to make a mistake)? All caves are still under exploration as far as I know. So is this cave like WKPP where only a selected few can go?

I am not familiar with the WKPP, so I cannot compare, but yes all caves I dive are under exploration and access is a privilege and not a right.

Do you now have enough information and understanding to explain and substantiate exactly what could have gone wrong in my dive not having a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer that having it instead could have made a difference?

If you do not believe such cave exist and/or I did that dive, you can answer hypothetically, basically on the assumption such cave exist and someone did or intends to do such dive.

This way we can all learn something from this thread from you.

---------- Post added January 12th, 2014 at 01:06 PM ----------

Lets assume you have a healthy SAC rate of 22 liters/min (.75 cu/ft for us imperial guys) and twinset 18L tanks as you claim, (22/18=1.2222) yields us 1.222 bar per minute. 70 bar used in each tank means 57 minutes of run time for each tank, with a total dive time of 114 minutes. You say your average depth was 12 meters (40 feet), 18 meter (60 feet) low point.

So, Omisson, have you figured out what you did wrong here?

 

[ajduplessis]

Champion STROKE is the words that come mind when I read you rumblings.

 

[gianaameri]

Champion STROKE is the words that come mind when I read you rumblings.

Very much a Stroke, but math is not an opinion and both DIR and Strokes would agree on that.

Where would that put Omisson?

 

[TONY CHANEY]

I am not familiar with the WKPP, so I cannot compare, but yes all caves I dive are under exploration and access is a privilege and not a right.

Do you now have enough information and understanding to explain and substantiate exactly what could have gone wrong in my dive not having a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer that having it instead could have made a difference?

This way we can all learn something from this thread from you.

Well it really is not my thread. It was created by the mods after your posting of your dive in question. I can see how you would not know the WKPP project. I mean, heck, it is only the longest push in cave diving history. Some of the best cavers ever have worked on this ongoing project. Woodville Karst Plain Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At this point we have really beat a dead horse too much over the lack of a bottom timer, depth guage or computer. As of lately you even start to say and I know that you really want to say that it was a piss poor decision. In any scuba dive there is nothing, and I mean nothing, more important than depth and time. Everything else in diving revolves around those two factors. What really gets to me is that you cannot see nor want to see that you made a piss poor decision. No bottom timer, no depth guage no dive! No, "what could of happened," no, "how could it have saved me," no, "I knew the system (which even you admitted that you were in a new section) no nothing! (I rather like double negitives). You made a piss poor decision and it was not a calculated risk. Sad part is that someone might read about your decision and do likewise.

 

[gianaameri]

Well it really is not my thread. It was created by the mods after your posting of your dive in question. I can see how you would not know the WKPP project. I mean, heck, it is only the longest push in cave diving history. Some of the best cavers ever have worked on this ongoing project. Woodville Karst Plain Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At this point we have really beat a dead horse too much over the lack of a bottom timer, depth guage or computer. As of lately you even start to say and I know that you really want to say that it was a piss poor decision. In any scuba dive there is nothing, and I mean nothing, more important than depth and time. Everything else in diving revolves around those two factors. What really gets to me is that you cannot see nor want to see that you made a piss poor decision. No bottom timer, no depth guage no dive! No, "what could of happened," no, "how could it have saved me," no, "I knew the system (which even you admitted that you were in a new section) no nothing! (I rather like double negitives). You made a piss poor decision and it was not a calculated risk. Sad part is that someone might read about your decision and do likewise.

Tony,

c'mon, you can do better than that.

"No bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive."

You sound like a USMC drill sergeant out of an American movie.

Why exactly "no bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive" when it makes not an iota (i.e. less than an electron neutrino) of difference to the dive because the dive plan was made precisely not to need one such device?

Can you think of one reason, one situation, one "what if" scenario... where a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have made a dent of a difference to/during my dive?

A. Yes
b. No

 

[TONY CHANEY]

You sound like a USMC drill sergeant out of an American movie.

Not a Drill Instructor but a SSgt USMC (Ret) with 20 years of service. I have some advice for you, "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!" Have fun diving and let's get together and hit Eagle's Nest.

 

[gianaameri]

Not a Drill Instructor but a SSgt USMC (Ret) with 20 years of service. I have some advice for you, "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!" Have fun diving and let's get together and hit Eagle's Nest.

The only people in a hole is you and Omisson.

Omisson dives beyond his abilities and cannot apply properly the SAC formula.

You cannot explain why "no bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive."

How about in a pool?

"No bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive" ???

I appreciate your background drives you to blindly apply the rules and "no bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive" is a good rule, but should it apply where a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer is of no use (or could a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer have saved my life in some circumstance in my dive)?

 

[ScubaToneDog]

The only people in a hole is you and Omisson.

Omisson dives beyond his abilities and cannot apply properly the SAC formula.

You cannot explain why "no bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive."

How about in a pool?

"No bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive" ???

I appreciate your background drives you to blindly apply the rules and "no bottom timer, no depth gauge, no dive" is a good rule, but should it apply where a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer is of no use (or could a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer have saved my life in some circumstance in my dive)?

I'll bite...pool is not an overhead, confined space. You did not have direct access to the surface. Find me a 12 meter deep pool that is an overhead environment and I might agree.

Anything can happen even in a pool. Do you need changes in a pool, no. In a cave, yes, with exception to you I guess. Your argument of pool comparison is silly.

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