Inexhaustible CO2 Eliminator

[madmole]

Statement is true!

You can get any duration you want by changing the breathing rate and the CO2 production rate of the diver. the 180 mins claimed by DERA (Navy test house, not in any way associated with the Inspiration) was at CE CO2, depth and breathing rate values

Duration and efficiency are two completely different parameters

US navy uses less CO2 in mix, and a slightly higher temp to test hence the longer durations

I'll try and get the actual quote and test figures this evening when I get back from work

 

[Shas]

Madmole - your sign-off states that you are "A man on a mission to stop the misinformation spread about rebreathers".

To that end my reply was to your original post which stated,

the Inspiration scrubber IS the most efficient ....... No other rebreather comes close

, this is simply not true - no way is the Inspriation uninsulated axial flow scrubber even close to the efficency of a insulated radial flow scrubber - be it the DCSC, the SIVA range, Viper, or PRISM Topaz/Invader.

Your new post states

Duration and efficiency are two completely different parameters

- but they are related, because your duration is more seriously affected by water temperature and depth than the radial designs. I offered you a ratio calc comparing the use of material in our scrubber, assuming

the same weight of material you get an additional 53 minutes duration

. Your claiming that my data is skewed, why? Because everyone has access to it and the pertinent test perimeters, whereas those figures are not readily or publicly available for the other scrubber. We have "heard" that the tests were done in 4 degrees F - USN was done in 4.5 degrees F - negibliable differrence. We have "heard" that the tests were at 1.6 lpm CO2 production - was that pulsed or continuous flow and at what RMV? the USN is 1.35slpm continuous flow and 40lpm RMV. We have not heard whether the tests were conducted at depth or at surface? USN tests are done at 60fsw/18msw. USN test perimeters are a recognised standard and publicly available.

To borrow from another post, the bottom line is what everyone needs to know about NEDU (or any third party testing): Anyone can ask NEDU to test their equipment. The party who PAYS for the testing gets to specify which tests are performed. When the testing has been completed the NEDU will deliver a report to the paying party. There is no pass or fail here; simply results. When the USNavy wants a piece of equipment, it is sent to NEDU for
testing *TO NAVY STANDARDS*. Navy-use standards are extremely stringent, extensive, time-consuming, and expensive.

Here is something that you will hear people claim: "Our unit was
tested *at* NEDU." or "Our unit was tested *by* NEDU."

Here's is what's happened with the Prism: The Prism was tested at/by the NEDU at the request of the US Navy, at the US Navy's expense, using the US Navy standards for manned diving. The Prism has successfully passed these tests.

It is my understanding that all of the major rebreathers have been reviewed by the US Navy as a possible replacement for the Mk16. Whether the manufacturer chooses to disclose the results of those tests is their own business. I do know that if a unit passed US Navy manned testing, it's manufacturers would not hide the test results. And for those who state that the USN is only looking at US companies - please bear in mind the most commonly used oxygen rig used by the USN is the Drager LAR V - and they built in Germany by a German company

 

[KentCe]

Shas once bubbled...

It is my understanding that all of the major rebreathers have been reviewed by the US Navy as a possible replacement for the Mk16.

But that doesn't mean they payed the $$$ for a full NEDU test on each one. Do you know which RBs went through NEDU testing? Maybe the Prism was the only one?

Shas once bubbled...
And for those who state that the USN is only looking at US companies - please bear in mind the most commonly used oxygen rig used by the USN is the Drager LAR V - and they built in Germany by a German company

I didn't state they only looked at US companies, I stated what "if" they only looked at US companies. At the time, what other choice did they have when they switched to the Drager LAR V?

There are so many unknowns in this threads with people just making stuff up. We don't even know if the Prism will even be selected at the end. Maybe the Megalodon with its 9 hours duration (and tactical courses <g>) will win.

So far I know the Inspiration passes CE testing and the Prism went through NEDU testing. Everything else are rumors.

 

[madmole]

Shas once bubbled...
Madmole - your sign-off states that you are "A man on a mission to stop the misinformation spread about rebreathers".

To that end my reply was to your original post which stated, , this is simply not true - no way is the Inspriation uninsulated axial flow scrubber even close to the efficency of a insulated radial flow scrubber - be it the DCSC, the SIVA range, Viper, or PRISM Topaz/Invader.

Efficiancy is the amount of sofnolime consumed when breakthrough occurs. Try reading the Royal Navy's papers on scrubber design research. The most efficent designs were axial with the length/width ration in certain proportions. Radials perform well, but the fact that the gas flow slows as it leaves the centre or condenses as it goes into the centre means the material is not used so evenly. The papers are on the net.

The Inspiration scrubber uses 99.something % of its material before breakthrough, Like to know how more efficient you can get

It IS insulated, by 2 separate layers of heat insulative plastic and an air gap between them

I say again, DERA state that the Inspiration is the most efficient Scrubber they have tested. Not my quote, but the Royal Navy's testing house's quote

Your new post states - but they are related, because your duration is more seriously affected by water temperature and depth than the radial designs. I offered you a ratio calc comparing the use of material in our scrubber, assuming . Your claiming that my data is skewed, why? Because everyone has access to it and the pertinent test perimeters, whereas those figures are not readily or publicly available for the other scrubber. We have "heard" that the tests were done in 4 degrees F - USN was done in 4.5 degrees F - negibliable differrence. We have "heard" that the tests were at 1.6 lpm CO2 production - was that pulsed or continuous flow and at what RMV? the USN is 1.35slpm continuous flow and 40lpm RMV. We have not heard whether the tests were conducted at depth or at surface? USN tests are done at 60fsw/18msw. USN test perimeters are a recognised standard and publicly available.

CE parameters are an internationally recognised standard (by 17 countries currently) and publically available. They require a constant 1.6lpm co2 at 20m, at 4Cand I believe 40 lpm SAC, Hence are deeper, colder and more CO2 than NEDU, hence the duration is less. Until both scrubbers are submitted to the same test with the same parameters, quoting the duration is meaningless. I know of users than claim 10 hours on their yellow box!!!! (madness)

To borrow from another post, the bottom line is what everyone needs to know about NEDU (or any third party testing): Anyone can ask NEDU to test their equipment. The party who PAYS for the testing gets to specify which tests are performed. When the testing has been completed the NEDU will deliver a report to the paying party. There is no pass or fail here; simply results. When the USNavy wants a piece of equipment, it is sent to NEDU for
testing *TO NAVY STANDARDS*. Navy-use standards are extremely stringent, extensive, time-consuming, and expensive.

Here is something that you will hear people claim: "Our unit was
tested *at* NEDU." or "Our unit was tested *by* NEDU."

APD dont claim that. The inspiration was tested by DERA and found to conform to the publically availble CE standards and hence was awarded a CE mark.

Here's is what's happened with the Prism: The Prism was tested at/by the NEDU at the request of the US Navy, at the US Navy's expense, using the US Navy standards for manned diving. The Prism has successfully passed these tests.

It is my understanding that all of the major rebreathers have been reviewed by the US Navy as a possible replacement for the Mk16. Whether the manufacturer chooses to disclose the results of those tests is their own business. I do know that if a unit passed US Navy manned testing, it's manufacturers would not hide the test results. And for those who state that the USN is only looking at US companies - please bear in mind the most commonly used oxygen rig used by the USN is the Drager LAR V - and they built in Germany by a German company

My understanding is that the Inspiration hasn't been submitted to NEDU. APD dont see it as a military rebreather (they are producing another one for this role). It is designed for the civilian market only

Personally I couldn't give a monkey about Navy tests. I dont use my rebreather for sneaking up on ships. They are only partially relevent for recreational rebreathers (but better than nothing). Inspiration has lights and beepers on it for conveniance and safety, that would rule it out for Navy use instantly

Also here in Europe, its simple. NO CE, NO SALES!!!!!. Prism, MEG, RB80 etc, all great units but destined to be minor players in the rebreather world unless they get that all inportant CE cert. APD sell more Inspirations a month than Prism have sold to civilians in Total

Until either APD submit a yellow box to NEDU, or Prism submit their unit for CE certification we are pissing into the wind, comparing apples with oranges. Unfortunately the Prism cant pass in its present form cos CE requires audible alarms and other features the Prism doesn't have and APD are never going to submit their unit to NEDU so we will just have to hope

I'd love to see the Prism, Meg and RB80 CE'd and available to us here. The competition would be healthy and their sales would increase drastically, Rebreather uptake is much more prevalent here in Europe, probably 2 or more years ahead of the US. So sales numbers are much higher

I'm not putting the Prism down. I'd love for it to succed. I just feel that they rather overstate the NEDU results. Its a great unit

What the rebreather world needs is an internationally recongnised test standard for recreational rebreathers so we can truly compare all the units on the same baseline. It needs to be a standard that publishes the actual numbers rather than a blanket pass/fail like CE, and needs to cope with the different configurations and ideas (like not having audible warnings). The CE is the closest we have to that with soon to be 25 Nations using it as their test parameters. Its not perfect by a long way, but it is relevent. In October it also becomes the NATO standard, and I seem to remember the US military is part of NATO

 

[caveseeker7]

madmole once bubbled...

The inspiration was tested by DERA and found to conform to the publically availble CE standards and hence was awarded a CE mark.

What the rebreather world needs is an internationally recongnised test standard for recreational rebreathers so we can truly compare all the units on the same baseline. It needs to be a standard that publishes the actual numbers rather than a blanket pass/fail like CE

I completely agree with you on that point. There needs to be a standard with numbers that can be compared by the buyer. Still don't know how the Inspiration did, or how the Dolphin compares to the Azimuth in that respect.

madmole once bubbled...

I'd love to see the Prism, Meg and RB80 CE'd and available to us here.

Rebreather uptake is much more prevalent here in Europe, probably 2 or more years ahead of the US. So sales numbers are much higher

Again, complete agreement. For the Meg and the Prism I could see it, too. For the RB80 I can't ...
You're probably right on the sales potential, and it's sad that SMI and ISC don't persue the European market. A loss for everyone.

madmole once bubbled...

Personally I couldn't give a monkey about Navy tests. I dont use my rebreather for sneaking up on ships. Inspiration has lights and beepers on it for conveniance and safety, that would rule it out for Navy use instantly

In October it also becomes the NATO standard, and I seem to remember the US military is part of NATO

That's an incongruity that just doesn't make sense.
The military units must comply with CE standard to be used, but because of it can't be, as you pointed out. LAR Vs with lights and beepers? Right. Excuse my sarcasm, but will the new uniforms have glow-in-the-dark bullseyes on them, too.
With the Inspiration being the only certified CCR, how do you think it'll fare during EOD missions? Not only will the Royal Navy divers dispose of the explosive ordnance, but themselves and their new CE certified RBs ...

So, if you don't give a monkey about Navy tests, what makes you think the Navy divers give monkeys about CE tests ?

 

[madmole]

Oh, dont get me wrong I think its bloody stupid too. Typical red tape and burocracy signed off by some desk jockey who's never even seen a breather no doubt

I think CE also states that they have to be a conspicous colour hence the yellow of the turtle and the white of the dolphin (again the azimuth seems to have passed this one by!!!)

But of course if a civilian rebreather standard is stupid for the navies, isn't Navy tests of civilian rebreathers just as pointless?

What we really need is for someone to buy a copy of the bloody CE regs so we can get the low down, rather than finding out third hand what they are all the times

 

[caveseeker7]

madmole once bubbled...

I think CE also states that they have to be a conspicous colour hence the yellow of the turtle and the white of the dolphin (again the azimuth seems to have passed this one by!!!)

These days, black or camo is as conspicious as it gets
Did they stop selling black Dolphins in the EC?

madmole once bubbled...

But of course if a civilian rebreather standard is stupid for the navies, isn't Navy tests of civilian rebreathers just as pointless?

Not entirely. Stuff like breathing resistance, scrubber duration etc. is important either way. Other requirements are different. Minimun scrubber duration, stealth (NO beeping), non-magnetism etc. for the Navy. Safety for civilians ...

madmole once bubbled...

What we really need is for someone to buy a copy of the bloody CE regs so we can get the low down, rather than finding out third hand what they are all the times

Then we know what is needed, not what we got or can get. No, what we really need is for APD, Dräger, and OMG to publish the minimum requirements and how their respective RBs tested in relation to them ... .

 

[Shas]

Yep - we really are comparing apples with oranges.

Efficiancy is the amount of sofnolime consumed when breakthrough occurs.

Or you could equally asume that efficency is the ability to use less (or equal amounts) and get more out of it - in this case usable duration.
Right now the Inspiration scrubber is 180 mins for 5.5lbs.
The PRISM is 255 mins (assuming cut off for both is a CO2 of 0.5 SEV) from 6lbs.
For those of us who are not mathamaticans and have to work it out, that would be 6=255, 5.5=x, therefore 6x=255x5.5, therefore 6x=1402.5, therefore x=233.75 or 233-180=53 extra minutes.

What your post prompted me to do was check what publicly available data on the Inspiration there is posted in their manual and I must apolagise for using the wrong numbers - section 3.6 Warning states they tested in a water temperature of 5 degrees C (I quoted F when it should have been C and 4 when it should be 5) Likewise PRISM tests were at 4.5 degrees C.
The easy solution to this is - show the test data, what perimeters were used and what performance recorded.

DERA state that the Inspiration is the most efficient Scrubber they have tested. Not my quote, but the Royal Navy's testing house's quote

Would love to see the quote on their letterhead - not just keep hearing about it, thirdhand. When I keep hearing this in conjunction with the previous paragraph my question is "why won't they show the data?"

IS insulated, by 2 separate layers of heat insulative plastic and an air gap between them

I don't see a housing and cartridge insert - therefore housing must also be the scrubber wall? How then can it be insulated? Where is the air gap - surely you don't mean the sensor well?
We use a radial style basket which inserts into a clear housing - gives approx 1/4 inch insulation all round the scrubber.

Regarding your comment on NEDU testing

APD dont claim that.

then why was it all over their booth at DEMA and quoted at BTS?

Understand Madmole - this is not a get at you personally but we see all these things put into public forums by "knowledgeable" individuals and until they get called to produce, it slips by and if enough people say it it must be true - the "Emperor's Clothes" or an Urban Legend. Remember your comment on dive stores surposed to be representing SMI/PRISM in the UK - that also was not true, you had been misled, but we put that one to rest.

I picked up a post that made a statement which is wrong. I agree with Caveseeker that

There needs to be a standard with numbers that can be compared by the buyer

We tried to get that rolling over here in the late 90's and it didn't work because not all rigs are equal. CE may be relevant to your market, but sorry Europe isn't the only market. Yes, it's a large one, but it's also saturated, and the company that has saturated it has had a major hand in setting the CE rules.

Yellow box people imply that everyone else who manufacturers is somehow inferior - which when you look at the facts is not the case. If people would like education on this site then we will add more data and explanations as time goes on but there is no point trying to defend ourselves against half-truths and innuendo. Many people who venture onto this site leave because they get ridiculed. So if you are truly after facts and meaningful dialog then we're happy to join in, if not we'll just go away and get some work done

Shas

 

[madmole]

Agreed that untill both scrubbers undergo the same test with the same criteria the data is meaningless. There is still no accpeted maths to calculate the effect of a 1 deg temprature change or a 1m depth change on scrubber duration, you'd think by now some research would have been done. They only stuff I can find is the Royal Navy's research into scrubber shape.

Some research also shows that the volume to duration curve is not a straight line, ie if you double the volume you more than double the duration.

On the Insp test, the manual says 5C, one of the folks who was at the actual test says 4C. I have an email out with another of the folks present at the actual tests (whom I trust implicitly) for real data and a source for the DERA quote

Inspiration has a outer container made of about 7mm think plastic, which contains the scrubber canister in it which is 5mm thick. There is a 2mm air gap between them which is sealed by an O ring. Check out the scrubber section of my web site for pics. The head with the cells in it is much thicker (about 1cm) as is the base of the outer.

By the way, the shop in question are still adamant they talked to Steam Machines and even met with them and were shown the units. But it all fell through when it came to CE. Something is definately fishy there. I will ask them for names when I'm next in there

I think the European market is a long way from saturated, there's the 50,000 or so OC divers in the UK alone to sell RB's to yet. APD certainly seem to be not noticing a slowdown in demand

As for DEMA, I wasn't there. APD certainly dont claim that here. I will ask Martin tommorrow when I see him at the big Yellow box meet

As for the DERA results, Martin has that and he's adamant he's not telling (weve asked in the past), claims about trade secrets and giving the competitors unfair advantage etc. I to want to see the data as well

Anyway I'm off to bed now. Down to Plymouth tommorrow to join in this weeekends mass yellow box drowning

 

[BigJetDriver]

Hello All!

I kept wondering why "Shas" is such a passionate defender of Steam Machine's Prism (et al).

Then, of course, I thought to look at the profile page. (Duh!--Sound of hand striking forehead!)

"Shas" is the wife of Peter Readey (or possibly his sister). I am left to judge solely by her name, since I do not know the lady personally.

The more relevant part of the picture is that she is the Vice-president of the company, Steam Machines. I would like to point out that this does not, in and of itself, negate her comments and information. It does, however, explain the tenor and color of some of them. She certainly must be expected to be passionately partisan toward her company's product. One should keep this in mind when reading her posts.

I do know, as well, that Peter Readey is a very fine gentleman, and wish him, and his company all the best.

(Full Disclosure: I do not own any part of APD or any of its subsidiaries. I do own a modified Inspiration. I also know APD's head, Martin Parker, and his executive assistant, Nicky Finn, personally.)

I believe that the Prism is a good piece of gear. I had made the commitment to buy one, but when I could not find Peter at DEMA a bit more than two years ago, I went with the Inspiration.

After having been diving my Turtle for that length of time in some very stringent conditions, I can personally say that the Inspiration is an excellent piece of kit! It does the job reliably and well. Since it is in mass production, parts are readily available. It also has truly excellent company support, thanks in no small part to the efforts of the admirable staff headed by Nicky Finn. For those looking for a good CCR, it makes an excellent choice.