Inexhaustible CO2 Eliminator

[BillP]

Hi All:

Not really a question, just a "gee whiz" comment on something I hadn't heard before. Researchers at the Univ. at Buffalo and Syracuse Univ. (and probably elsewhere too) are studying using microporous hollow fiber membranes as CO2 eliminators for rebreathers. Wow, no more chemical CO2 scrubbers to maintain. Water is a good absorbtion medium for CO2 through the membrane and you're unlikely to run out of it in the ocean.

The researchers have made a "test bed" membrane CO2 eliminator to simulate breathing and it worked on a small scale reducing CO2 in the breathing mix from 4% (simulated exhalation) to 0.2-0.4%. Apparently the rate of air and water flow past the membrane is important, and they have size and configuration issues for a full size CO2 eliminator to work out, but I thought the research interesting.

Now if they can just come up with a membrane to absorb enough O2 from the water....

Bill

 

[Iguana Don]

BillP:
That last comment about the O2 membrane, well it's not too far away. I'd tell you how I know, but then I'd have to kill you. Let's just say "Your tax dollars are at work".

 

[Beck_narco_diver]

so are there any rebreather users in these forums, cause i am after some more info about the halycon demand rebreather, i have used several systems and i wanted to see if anyone has had much experience with it. Closed circuit... well iwas looking at cislunar, anyone used one??

 

[Desert Ocean]

For information on the best rebreathers available, check out http://www.divecommando.com and look for the Inspiration Repreathers. Training is available for a top rated instructor.


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[red]NOTICE -[/red] This was obviously nothing more than a [red]SPAM[/red] attempt from this person that posted this thread - otherwise known as [red]divecommando.com[/red] , since this post, months have past and they never returned and even after direct contact refused to have any more to say...

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[Military Diver]

Desert Ocean,

I understand your affiliation with this company, and therefore your loyalty - which is admirable, but ...

In my Professional, Extensive and Long Term Military opinion, I have to respectfully Disagree with you on this point.

If I had to wager a bet, I would have to say that your Bold claim about "the best rebreathers available" is more based on "personal interest" than it is the "Facts". I know what I myself trust my life to regularly as I venture beyond the 300ft range, and I have extensive training in most ALL rebreather systems. For now, I think I will keep my vote to myself in fairness to you, and allow you to respond, but do you mind telling me what you would base your claim on?

I look forward to your reply.

 

[King_Neptune]

Beck_narco_diver and friends,

Originally posted by Beck ...

i am after some more info about the halycon demand rebreather ...

... well i was looking at cislunar

I am interested in what "Military Diver" feels is his rebreather of choice, but I can shed some light on some of the rebreathers out there... Now, keep in mind this is what my asking and my research has brought me to believe, but I am more than open to any thoughts one way or another since that's what this is all about, researching and find out what is best for us. For much of my research I turn to what is considered the final word for not only our own military but militaries around the world... And as far as I am concerned that is a pretty well researched authority.

Cislunar...
In a word or two ... "STAY AWAY"! For a little more on why, gee, where so I start?

Let me start with the final word from the authority I mentioned above...

1) The Navy DID NOT pass them due to Insufficient co2 washout

2) Next let me say they weigh a Metric Butt Ton! (not very scientific of a measurement I know as I just made it up but I think you get the point...)

3) Their CEO, Mr. Nordstrom, has washed his hands to the company and the company is now up for sale! To put it lightly, lets just say this companies future is "uncertain" at the least. That alone is enough to scare me away from any product. Would you rush out and buy ANYTHING where you didn't even know if the company was going to exist the next day? Nope, me neither!

4) It wont take you long to find out about the MANY other screaming divers that have paid up to $one-half or more down for their rebreather from them and MORE than a YEAR later they have still NOT received their product. Slightly scarry indeed!

Halycon...
1) Once again to the Navy - It didn't even touch the test pool and was NOT tested due to the fact it FAILED to pass pre-screening requirements!

2) With its square or rectangular breathing bag it physically CANNOT provide sufficient co2 washout

A.P.Valves Inspiration...
1) Let me wax poetic here and quote what one Navy tester said to me about this uummm, "rebreather" ...

[red]To Die or Not to Die ... That is the question[/red]

It depends on who you ask or where you look, in the last year and a half (1.5 years) at least 12 and as many as 19 Inspiration Rebreather divers chose the A.P.Valves Inspiration as the answer and are now [red]DEAD[/red]!

Now, unless someone can shed some light on this, with something that is unknown to the rest of us in the Diving Industry (In which case I will gladly retract my own opinion and stand corrected) but for now, I again follow the Navy's research.

I ask you this ... Do any of you feel like jumping in one of these and going diving anytime soon? NOT!

No matter how you look at this, I do NOT see anything I like about it, period! So before someone says that's not a fair ascertation of the situation let me present to all of you these thoughts ...

1) Was it the rig its self that failed? No one knows 100% for sure ... So lets look at the alternative...

2) Was it poor training that caused it? Ok, again someone might argue that it is impossible to know for sure, even though this is the most commonly held reason I have found stated. So let me go to #3 ...

3) If it isn't the gear, and it wasn't the training and you want to blame it all on Human Error then I have to remind you of one thing ... TWELVE to NINETEEN (12/19) divers in less than 2 years!

Will you next try to make me believe that in less than 2 years, 12-19 people are [red]DEAD[/red] all while diving the A.P.Valves Inspiration because they were all unlucky and they were all freak accidents?

I would have a REALLY hard time believing that 12-19 people, all while using (usually reported) perfect gear, all having received perfect training, are going to [red]DIE[/red] due to doing something completely obscure or crazy enough to kill themself without having anything to do with the one common factor they all shared.

Can anyone show me any other similar situations where it WASN'T the GEAR or the LACK of training in such a short period of time where the common factor in all of them was they ALL were using the same gear?!?

Hhhmmm, sounds like an Abbott and Costello movie I saw about the curse of some Mummy or possessed ancient artifact or ???

Normally I would NEVER trash any product out there but I am sorry, I cannot forget [red]12 to 19 DEAD[/red] in less than 2 years while using this equipment.

Sounds fishy, no pun intended! I also feel that I, as well as all divers have an obligation to our fellow divers to present the facts and then let them make up your own mind. So that's what I am doing, and if I am wrong on my facts, PLEASE correct me as I do NOT wish to present even a hint of fallacy in my statements. As I mentioned above, I am myself trying to look into all the facts but this is what I keep getting over and over and no one seems to come forward with anything different!

I pride myself on trying to stay informed within the world of diving and from what I can gather these are the facts as I have found them. Believe me, I would like nothing better than to be corrected and shown that they were all killed by falling meteorites from the sky but short of that, I know which gear I WILL NOT and CANNOT within good conscience recommend!

As "Military Diver" did, I plead with "Desert Ocean" to comment on these incidents, because I for one would like to know if I am wrong and I would definitely feel better knowing that there aren't a bunch of time bombs ticking out there strapped to fellow divers.


Now, I don't want to sound like the GRINCH that stole Christmas here, so let me leave you with my $0.02 on the who, what, when, where, why and how of what I believe to be the best rebreather commercially available... STEAM MACHINES

No, I do not own any stock, nor am I related to them, nor am I connected to them in any other way, YET ... hehe ... "yet?" ...

Right, because I want one of their new units so bad I can taste it! Two of the MOST powerful sales points as far as I am concerned is...

1) I pay close attention to what the Navy testings show, and Steam Machines is one of the Front runners right now and if I'm not mistaken they are the absolute #1 right now as far as "commercially available rebreathers" go... and

2) just talk to a owner of one of their systems! Better yet, talk to someone that owned one of the others like a Drager, and ask them why they switched to the Steam Machine and why they would NEVER go back? 5 minutes of listening to them and your hooked, you'd think they had found the lost city of Atlantis!

And the fact they have had ZERO fatalities or incidents kind of speaks for its self too! Do a little digging around their site and their Official Docs speak for them self.

Now if you all will just pass that collection plate around again and contribute to the "King Neptune Rebreather Fund" .. hehe ...

=-)

 

[Mario S Caner]

King Neptune,

I can sit here all day and come up with only one single reason why I dont have a Steam Machines rebreather.... My current "Funds" situation.

Have no fear though, I too will have one some day!
Perhaps we can, as they said earlier,(what was the word that was used before) "fraternize" when we pick some rebreathers up? hehe

Mario

 

[Frog]

Thanks for such a frank and honest statement KN. By the way were these 20 or so people from around the world as I believe thats what I have read? "20 give or take" people is more than enough even if they were from all over the globe but I want to get a better perspective on this. Does anyone know where i can read more about the people that died using the rebreather please.

Cheers

 

[Iguana Don]

Go to

http://www.techdiver@aquanuat.com

and ask. Be careful, make sure you have your asbestos underwear on.

or you can check out.......

http://www.suicide@Inspiration.com or http://www.mylastdive@APvalves.com

ID

 

[BigJetDriver]

King_Neptune, and all others interested in rebreathers,

The situation is is somewhat more complicated than you make it sound in your post about available rebreathers.

Cis-Lunar: The company is completely moribund, and has been for some time. Parts and service are becoming available through an agreement between Richard Nordstrom, Bill Stone, and Kevin Juergensen.
See: <www.electricfilm.com>

Prism Topaz: Peter Readey is a very fine gentleman, and I believe his equipment to be top-notch (I was committed to buying one at one point.) but, to my knowledge, no civilian deliveries have occurred in the past two years, although there are people who have had deposits in for that long.

Inspiration: There are around 6000 units in use world-wide, with more coming off the line every month. They are used extensively in multi-day, multi-dive scenarios. They are used in deep, mixed-gas profiles with extreme run-times. They have been used in very deep caves with excellent success. They are the only units in the world with European Union approval, and the testing agency involved was a British Military agency.

(From personal experience, I can tell you that we had 24 of them at Darwin's Arch last October. We did over 400 hours of recorded dive time at 80 to 100 fsw, in cold water and rough seas, for the Shark Research Institute. In that time we had zero incidents. We changed two sensors, and repaired a couple of Auto-Air's. The data we brought back helped Dr. Alex Antoniou convince the folks at the international conference in Santiago, Chile--CITES-- to list the Whale Shark on Level II protection.)

Your statements about numbers of fatal accidents versus stated time period are simply not correct. I follow the reports from initial to final on several other nets. Please contact me via private message and I can supply you with better information or contact <www.silentdiving.com> or <www.ambientpressurediving.com>.

Megalodon: Their production has been in limbo since the recent unfortunate death of their software guiding light, Will Smithers (in an aviation accident). I know Leon to be an excellent man, and I hope those difficulties will be overcome soon.

Misc: There are several other units available on an extremely low production basis. They have their strengths and weaknesses, and need to be analized on a case by case basis.

One can, occasionally, obtain ex-military units (including Russian ones) and through dint of much effort, rebuild them into very fine units. I just saw an excellent rebuild on a Russian IDA-71, although that was an SCR and not a CCR.

I hope that this information will be of some use to yourself and others involved in choosing to go "bubble-less". Please feel free to contact me via private message and I can connect you to folks with expertise in your desired area of inquiry.