In defense of Casual Divers

[BiggDawg]

So let me get this straight. He minced words because he was worried about the reaction he would get when he assiciated those who argue for better dive training with nazis?

Actually, I don't see anywhere that he said anything about "those who argue for better dive training." In fact, he said:

I would grately perfer my divers to have a solid understanding of the BARE BASICS then a little bit about allot of things that have no impact on their safety during the dive they are doing.
Emphasis added.

A "Solid Understanding" does not argue against better training, just against those things that really are unnecessary for the casual diver.

No wonder. If he were to make it clear who he was talking to, the appropriate thing for those folks to do might be to demand satisfaction...at dawn...choose you insult and all of that.

But then, since he didn't insult any one directly, guess we'll have to miss the pistols at dawn and other sabre rattling from the dark side...

Talk about nazi...do it the vacation diver way or else!

Now, see, that's just silly. :shakehead I don't think you mean that, and no one else has said anything like it...

How dare anyone suggest that divers should be given a choice? I mean how f..ing dare anyone suggest that the basics of diving like buoyancy control, trim, gas manegement ect actually be taught?

Re-read what he said. He was advocating for the choice, saying that those who would say his way was unacceptable were limiting the choice of his customers. Twisting things a little, are we?

Flame? All this nazi crap isn't flamming right?

I won't mince words. We know who the NAZI is. It's the one who wants every one to be keyholed into that resort diver, need a DM or six to survive and no one should say a word group.

The good news for our nazi identifying friend is that he can go into almost any dive shop in the world and everyone will agree with him. I'm sorry that he's so miffed by the fact that not everyone here agrees that he can't discuss the real issues in the threads where they are being discussed but rather equates disagreeing with him to the attempted slaughter of a race.

Well, as long as we're going to be inflammatory to get off the topic and miss the OP's original point (ironically, what he was apparently trying to avoid), it was the attempted slaughter of at least six different races, as well as many other demographic groups. Let's not minimize the situation, shall we?
Actually, You are the first and only poster to use the term "Nazi" in any context. If not logic, at least inflame, right?

The problem is that the two side are not equal and diagreeing with him does NOT EQUAL NAZI

Missed the point entirely, apparently. No where did the OP suggest that "disgreement with him ... equal(s) Nazi." He used a rather dark image of in-step marching followers of some one else's orders. It is amazing how that could be twisted into disagreeing with him, when he was arguing against those who will not allow the disgreement.

Hey, why am I defending him? Where is he in this? But at least he was right, his posting certainly aroused the flames (and flamers), didn't it...? And, as a result, his point has been missed by those who take it upon themselves.

 

[The Kraken]

From a moderator's standpoint, I would prefer if the analogous use of the term "NAZI" would not be used.

One may construe that to mean that it's more than just a "preference".

Thank you.

The Kraken

 

[H2Andy]

Kraken, i hear you... nothing good can come from name-calling like that

They want to relax and see the pretty fish and the beautiful reef. The don’t want to join a CULT or in-list in the WUAFEN SS. They expect me to be a DIVE MASTER not a REICH MARSHAL.

Howie, it's WAFFEN SS, and one "enlists" in it... well... a while back anyway

also, the Reich Marshal in Nazi Germany was Hermann Goering, and he did not belong to the Waffen SS. he was the head of the Luftwaffe

but seriously, why call people names like this? it can't help but inflame things

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

From a moderator's standpoint, I would prefer if the analogous use of the term "NAZI" would not be used.

One may construe that to mean that it's more than just a "preference".

Thank you.

The Kraken

I agree with you here. I can't think of too many other words that I take offense to. I also don't see where it fits into a diving forum (unless the NAZI party dive discussion opens up)

How would one go about having this nasty word added to all the other nasty words that get the ****?

 

[BiggDawg]

Has there suddenly been a rash of casual divers getting embolisms? Did I miss that news flash?

Seems to me, a quick survey of the incident reports would demonstrate that it is not the casual resort diver who is getting hurt or killed,

Nothing sudden about it. It's been going on for a while now.

No, actually it is not the casual resort diver who is getting hurt and/or killed. Nor is it the extremely skilled and trained. Most dive accidents don't happen to the newly certified, but to those who have been diving for several years, and have logged a significant number of dives.

Now, is that what we call a "survivorship bias" in that the badly (i.e. "deadly") skilled divers quit before it's too late? Or is it because after a diver has 50-100 dives he starts to dive beyond his skill and training? Or is it just that it takes a while to develop bad, and risky, habits? Who knows. But it is not the resort diver, with two DMs, going to 30 feet, that is in the headlines.

 

[Adobo]

I have the up-most respect for the DIR and HOG guys... I am more then pleased that allot of you are expanding the sport and showing that normal people who want to spend the time and effort can safely do TRI-MIX and multi level decon dives.
Please keep it up and feel free to share you knowledge and adventures with us.

That beeing said I run into alot of wanna be's they have the gear - they can talk the talk - but they end up having zero bouncey control and the biggest HOOVERs on the boat.

My point is that I don't post often... When I do post I always try to point out the plus and minus's of the point I'm trying to make.

Then some people jump in and basicly infer that you have to be an idiot to do that and you are surely going to die...........................

Is that right?

As a diver who is continually working on bouyancy proficiency and SAC rate, I'd like to say, "Fish on!!!"

 

[IXΘYΣ]

There are those who expect to be cared for in all walks of life, including Scuba. There are those who are willing to provide the service for a price. What's the problem?
The fact is that the safety record for Scuba is pretty enviable as recreational (especially "adventure" recreational) activities go.
I relish the math and the equipment and the teamwork and the planning and the technical difficulty and the independence of putting together dives that most divers won't even contemplate, and I believe that the secret to really enjoying even a simple shallow dive in clear warm water is in the same kind of attention to detail... but that doesn't mean the diver that just wants to trust and follow a hired pro to do the planning and the leading and the watching for and handling of problems is "wrong" - just not my kind of diver.
And I am grateful for the support of the industry in general that they provide.
Bottom line, if someone wants to drop a bunch of bucks on a hand-holder, it's fine.

 

[MikeFerrara]

No, actually it is not the casual resort diver who is getting hurt and/or killed. Nor is it the extremely skilled and trained. Most dive accidents don't happen to the newly certified, but to those who have been diving for several years, and have logged a significant number of dives.

Which data are you referncing?

Now, is that what we call a "survivorship bias" in that the badly (i.e. "deadly") skilled divers quit before it's too late? Or is it because after a diver has 50-100 dives he starts to dive beyond his skill and training? Or is it just that it takes a while to develop bad, and risky, habits? Who knows. But it is not the resort diver, with two DMs, going to 30 feet, that is in the headlines.

No it's usually deeper but it is often divers with little training and/or little recent experience. Put another way...poor skills. Other points include facts like the large percentage of dives that result in injury or death where buoyancy control and/or rapid ascents are reported.

Unfortunately the industry answer to safety seems to be supervision. I would agree that if it weren't for the fact that most divers are doing canned dives under some level of supervision, things would be much worse as far as injury and fatality numbers.

 

[lamont]

As a cause for accident, diver error is much less likely when there is a divemaster at each end of a guided tour, even if that means the resort divers are just passengers.

That assumes the DMs are competent. All the DM posters in this thread probably are.

But this is exactly what leads to the frequent posts on this board of new divers signalling low on air to DMs, the DMs ignoring them and the divers going OOA on the ascent. I see this over and over. And you can probably find a few pilotfish threads on this topic with over 1,000 posts to them.

If you're not teaching them how to dive, they don't know how to assess the skills of the DM and don't know when to ditch a bad DM.

 

[Web Monkey]

Perhaps what Howie is reacting to is the very small very small indeed minority of divers who believe that if you have not spent 15 hours in the pool perfecting your hover before you get into the open water you are an accident waiting to happen. Or perhaps he is reacting to the group that says that unless your open water course consists of o/w plus advanced o/w and then rescue with a nitrox endorsement you really are under trained.

That pretty much covers it. Although I typically don't like to rain on anybody's parade, even a 1:1 DiverM ratio can't stop someone from doing something stupid and getting hurt or killed. A 2:1 ratio or higher is just a false sense of security for at least one of the divers.

Terry