In defense of Casual Divers

[Mike Veitch]

No, I won't kiss up to you. Diving is NOT I repeat NOT comparable to golf or hockey or soccer or ANY sport. There is no middle ground in diving, either you have a solid skillset and you keep it honed or you're a danger. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND. If you only dove twice last year I would definately not dive with you, and I hope you can find a qualified diver to babysit you while you make a mess of things. Just because you have money to throw at something doesn't suddenly put you in power, if all the vacationers disappeared from scuba and used snuba as they should, scuba divers around the world would rejoice.

and the sky fell...

and chicken little rejoiced....

the end....

 

[HowieDean]

When I read the PADI OPEN WATER MANUAL it says that as long as I stay within the limits of the dive tables I can safely do a controlled emergency ascent. It specifically tells me I am not to venture into over head inveronments, things I can get tangled up in, etc.......

So if you don't exceed the depth limits or the bust the tables and you exhale when you ascend - please explane how you are going to die..... or kill anybody else for that mater.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to defend "corkers" or "bobers" or what ever you call people who bolt to the surface as their first response to any discomfort. But I don't want them to die underwater when all they had to was exhale and ascend.

I don't care how much you want to puff yourslef up, I'm sorry you don't have to be an astronaut to safely enjoy this sport.

From my personal EXPERIENCE I've seen more "know it all Posers" get in trouble then folks who understand that because they don't know EVERYTHING they sincerly try to pay atention to instructions - rules - etc.........

The hole reason I started this thread was to try get SOME people on this board to act more like MENTORS to these folks and encourage them to learn more and let them know that should they choose to try move on to the next level there will be open minded polite folks there to help them. ....... As aposed to entering into a group that is going to treat them like idiots and look down their noses at them.

There are several members of this board that I respect greatly.. And I would hope that new divers would want to imulate them and take the time and effort to maybe someday reach their level....

But let me leave you with one final point...

When Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and all the other PRO's drop buy and rub sholders with the mortals do you think give encourgement or ridicual..........

That's just my opionion I could be wrong

 

[mania]

Sort of a summary...

REPETITIO EST MATTER STUDIORUM!!!!!

Mania

 

[MikeFerrara]

When I read the PADI OPEN WATER MANUAL it says that as long as I stay within the limits of the dive tables I can safely do a controlled emergency ascent. It specifically tells me I am not to venture into over head inveronments, things I can get tangled up in, etc.......

So if you don't exceed the depth limits or the bust the tables and you exhale when you ascend - please explane how you are going to die..... or kill anybody else for that mater.

As A pro, this a question you should be able to answer for us. However, if you read any of what I've posted in this thread, you'd see that I gave several specific example of real people who really got hurt or died. At least one of the examples I gave was a student who was with an instructor.

I can give another example of a student who died. He was on an AOW night dive in a quarry that is barely 25 ft deep. He was seperated from the group (note I said group not buddy). They found him dead. There was no evidence of any midical problem, he just drowned.

The problem with diving in groups rather than having functional buddy teams is that a group of ten doesn't look much different than a group of nine. When a problem does come up, it's like having a heart attack on a city subway...will anyone even notice? ok there's the DM in fron and the one in back but unless this group is diving really close together niether is in a position to respond efficiently. Certainly not as eficiently as a diver who is right next to them and only has one or two buddies.

Birds travel in flocks and cows in herds but divers do better when in functional teams of two or three.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to defend "corkers" or "bobers" or what ever you call people who bolt to the surface as their first response to any discomfort. But I don't want them to die underwater when all they had to was exhale and ascend.

First off, many of these "corkers" aren't always ascending in response to a problem. The unintentional ascent is the problem. They don't always exhale probably because they may not even realize that they are ascending. They get distracted and their buoyancy control is gone. Second many times these ascents are very fast. When ascending rapidly how closed does an airway have to be and for how long before it's a problem? Third, you mention staying within the tables but the tables assume an ascent that isn't too fast. The PADI table sets the max at 60 FPM, the buhlmann tables I have use 33 fpm. Lots of divers ascend too fast on a normal, intentional ascent when there's no problem at all. With all the ups and downs and too fast ascents, guess what? They can easily end up outside those tables.

I don't care how much you want to puff yourslef up, I'm sorry you don't have to be an astronaut to safely enjoy this sport.

No, you need a DM in front and one in back and to be observed at the lodge and on the boat by some one who is going to decide what dives you are allowed to do. Right? Isn't that what you said that you guys do to keep divers safe?

From my personal EXPERIENCE I've seen more "know it all Posers" get in trouble then folks who understand that because they don't know EVERYTHING they sincerly try to pay atention to instructions - rules - etc.........

I don't think we've been talking about "posers". I've been talking about divers who don't have the skills that diving requires and an industry that doesn't teach those skills.

There is a kind of poser we need to be careful of though. That's the one who comes by it honestly. I did what I had to do to become a PADI instructor and for a while there I thought that I was qualified to teach diving. Over time, I learned better. PADI had me out there posing as an instructor.

The hole reason I started this thread was to try get SOME people on this board to act more like MENTORS to these folks and encourage them to learn more and let them know that should they choose to try move on to the next level there will be open minded polite folks there to help them. ....... As aposed to entering into a group that is going to treat them like idiots and look down their noses at them.

I haven't seen any onere treat new or unskilled divers like idiots. The agencies, now there are some idiots for you.

There are several members of this board that I respect greatly.. And I would hope that new divers would want to imulate them and take the time and effort to maybe someday reach their level....

But let me leave you with one final point...

When Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods and all the other PRO's drop buy and rub sholders with the mortals do you think give encourgement or ridicual..........

That's just my opionion I could be wrong

Encouragement to do what? There's one group here trying to give divers an idea of what they should know and be able to do and another trying to tell them to just jump in and dive without worry because the DM can keep you safe. You don't have to be an astronaut, remember? What do you have to be?

Your own question in this post...how is a diver going to get hurt? It happens. You should know it happens and, IMO, you shouldn't downplay it. That, IMO, is not encouraging any one in a constructive way.

You seem to be encouraging them to dive regardless of skill level. I try to encourage them to make sure the skill level is where it may need to be. You're ok with a diver needing a DM to make their decisions and watch them. I don't think that's adequate and several of the examples I gave in this thread were of divers who got in trouble while they were with an instructor. Being with an instructor or DM is not the same as being granted immunity.

You may think you can keep them safe and they may think so but I don't think you are any more flawless than the other instructors who have lost students or had them get hurt. You don't seem willing to discuss any of those incidents though. I suppose diving is more fun if you just pretend that stuff doesn't happen, can't happen or won't happen to you or some one you are supervising.

There are DM's and instructors who have found out differently though.

 

[jbd]

I would grately perfer my divers to have a solid understanding of the BARE BASICS

I have followed most of this thread and its various twists and turn as they have evolved and I keep coming back to this comment.

Is there something that constitutes a universally accepted "solid understanding of the BARE BASICS"?

In my case, which is hardly universal other than I'm big enough to be a universe, bare basics for OW certification includes excellent bouyancy control while diving as well as during the performance of the mask and regulator skills midwater.

My reasoning is that the diver no matter what flavor of diving they like or prefer will be safer and actually have more fun with such skills.

Whats your definition of the bare basics for OW certification?

 

[BKP]

Here's a vid clip for Foggy... just replace those mailroom guys with divers (in black ... or certain SB members... ) remember this ol' Fedex TV commercial? classic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmZRDUO1wGQ

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh jeeeez... ROFLMAO ... can't breathe... clipped my octo on the wrong d-ring... I'm doomed...

 

[Web Monkey]

As I read and read through the posts my enthusiasm was quickly drained away. I came to find out that I was stupid for going through a crappy PADI OW course especially since it was in Cozumel. And that I was going to die because I bought a certain type of regulator. And that I was an idiot for not using a BP/W and not having a regulator bungied around my neck. And most likely I was going to get bent and/or die of an arterial gas embollism on my very next dive.

Most of the warnings you find here are from people who did something bad and learned from it and are trying to stop others from having the same "learning experience", or from people who have had to do rescues or recoveries on people who's "learning experience" was a little more intense.

Some of the people who say "don't do this or you're going to die" have recovered the bodies of people who have done "that" and died, or know people who are now permanently disabled because of it.

Sure, a once a year drift dive to 100' in the Carribean is perfectly OK, until maybe someone discovers they're OOA at the end of the dive (and their NDL) and bolts up 100' to the bright blue sky above. Then they're not OK. Maybe not for a while, maybe not ever.

Nobody is trying to beat up once-a-year-divers, we just don't beleive it's safe, no matter how many DMs go along for the ride.

Terry

 

[loosebits]

Many of us feel that training is not adequate to allow the diver to dive at the limits of the current OW certification. The original poster demonstrated that by stating the need to flank divers with DM's. We simply want the certified diver to know what they can safely do and what is beyond their current training. Why does anyone have a problem with this?

I only got to dive twice last year, doe's that mean that my skills deteriorated to the point that I should not dive. Should I quit golfing because I am not a zero handicap, I never made a pro hockey team so should I not play in the beer league. I never rode the Tour De France so should I not ride a bicycle.
Vacation divers are the bread and butter of the dive industry. It would collapse with out us because there isn't enough dir's out there to support it. So you all better kiss up to us vacationers.

The only people who are thankful for you are those in the dive industry. I would prefer if I never saw another vacation diver. If that means a much smaller dive industry, great. It's far too large considering the number of people who actually want to invest time and money into it. As far as the people who start out undertrained and only dive a couple of times a year, do yourself a favor and stop diving all together. You really are an accident waiting to happen. Why does it sound so unreasonable to you vacation divers that perhaps diving is a sport that requires more than a trip to Cozumel once a year to maintain the skill to do it safely?

Diving used to require far more training than it does today and the divers were far better prepared for the environment but somehow the industry didn't collapse. Maybe my gear would be more expensive if you gave up and left but that's of little consequence to me as gear is a small fration of the cost of my training and my trips.

 

[Diver Dennis]

hey lolo.. i think his name is Pakman...

Oops. Sorry Pak (Mike). Lolo not look at avatar...:11:

 

[Walter]

Is there something that constitutes a universally accepted "solid understanding of the BARE BASICS"?
.................................

Whats your definition of the bare basics for OW certification?

No. If there were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What PADI considers "bare basics," I consider inadequate. What I consider "bare basics," PADI considers (I'm told, I can't read their minds, just their standards which do seem to support the concept) overkill.

What I consider bare basics for OW certification is covered fairly well in my list of questions for finding a good OW class. All the details aren't there, but it'll give you a good idea.

How do I find an above average course and how will I know I've found it?

Interview potential instructors. Most people never ask any questions beyond price. As the old saying goes, "You get what you pay for." Excellent instructors will usually have a higher priced class for a number of reasons. The instructor is dedicated toward providing you all the time you need to master necessary knowledge and skills. Extra pool time can be expensive. Keep in mind; the instructor is trying to make a living. His time is valuable.

Consider alternatives. While many instructors teach through dive shops, some of the best are independent instructors or affiliated with colleges, universities or YMCA's.

Questions to ask the instructors:

How long have you been teaching? Most instructors improve over time. They learn new techniques and get ideas from other instructors and through experience to improve their classes.

Do you certify all your students? Only instructors who are in a hurry and care nothing about your safety will answer yes. You want an instructor who will require you to be safe and knowledgeable before issuing a c-card. An excellent instructor might tell you that he is willing to keep working with a student until the student either qualifies or gives up.

What skin diving skills will I learn? While there is some disagreement on this point, many professionals believe a solid foundation in skin diving will not only make you a better SCUBA diver, it will make learning SCUBA easier.

Will I learn confidence-building skills? There are some skills which have no direct application to a typical dive, but which do build your confidence as well as your abilities. This, combined with an understanding of the panic cycle, will make you much less likely to panic.

Do you teach the panic cycle? Panic is the most dangerous aspect of diving. Many instructors do not understand panic and believe there is no way to combat it. In actuality, panic is understood. It is though learning the panic cycle and by increasing skill levels that panic is avoided.

Do your students swim with their hands? This will let you know if the instructor pays attention to details. Good divers do not use their hands for swimming.

Do you work on trim? Divers should usually be horizontal in the water. Good instructors will see that students are striving towards good trim. Poor instructors often neglect it.

Do you overweight your students? Many instructors overweight students. It is not a good practice.

What method do you use to correctly weight your students? Any answer that does not involve actually getting in the water means you want to avoid that instructor.

How many people will be in my class? Small classes are better. You'll have more individual attention. Unless the instructor is using certified assistants, more than four students are difficult to watch.

How many certified assistants will you be using? Unless the class is relatively large (more than 4 students) this should not be an issue. An instructor should have a certified Divemaster or Assistant Instructor for every two students over four. There are times when divers working on their Divemaster or Assistant Instructor certifications assist with a class. This is normal and not an issue, but they do not count toward the assistants an instructor should have when working with larger classes.

Will I be learning skills kneeling on the pool bottom or mid-water? This question is not critical, but will let you know if you've found an instructor who has a great deal on the ball. The over whelming majority of instructors (even good instructors) teach skills kneeling on the bottom. Don't eliminate instructors who do. Some instructors have realized your mask will flood while you are swimming, not when you are sitting on the bottom. You need to learn skills in the manner in which you'll be using them.