In defense of Casual Divers

[MikeFerrara]

I think you have hit on the best question to ask Red and exactly the point I think the OP was making. I don't think it is a bad thing to make new divers cautious but you're right, maybe we are making them insecure.

The whole industry works at making them feel sucure whether they should or not. If any of my rants help get even one diver to put just a little more thought into what they've been told or what they're doing then I'm happy.

I'd love to help them to feel secure but only if they have reason to and as I see it, there are many that just have no good reason to.

 

[Jarrett]

I just don't understand why everything has to end up if you don't do it this way you are going to DIE...... Or if you don't do it this way you must be an idiot and shouldn't be allowed in the water.

You would be suprised at the number of folks I meat who have ventured on to this board only to leave cause they can't stand the preaching.

HowieDean, first of all thanks for starting this thread. You hit the nail on the head with these comments above. I hope someone makes its a sticky at the top of this section.

When I first got certified I was all fired up and really excited about scuba diving. I got certified by a PADI instructor in Cozumel and had one of the best times of my life diving there. I came back to the real world and got online looking for like minded folks and found this place. Wow, more people feeling the same way, right?

As I read and read through the posts my enthusiasm was quickly drained away. I came to find out that I was stupid for going through a crappy PADI OW course especially since it was in Cozumel. And that I was going to die because I bought a certain type of regulator. And that I was an idiot for not using a BP/W and not having a regulator bungied around my neck. And most likely I was going to get bent and/or die of an arterial gas embollism on my very next dive.

Where were all the people that I interacted with in Cozumel and at local dive parks who shared my enthusiasm for diving? I wondered why are all the threads focused on belittling certification agencies, gear choices, or diving technique? I started thinking that this must be what "real" diving is about, tri-mix, stage bottles, dry suits and cave lines and most importantly... fear.

It took a while to read between the lines and realize that like-minded people are here and that its ok to ignore all the eltist preaching to find them And yes you are right. I know a handful of divers who read the board for while and decide they don't want to sift through the preaching to find the gems.

I know by now you have probably given up on actually reading this thread due to the onslaught of preaching, but if you happen to see this post...thanks again

 

[Walt1957]

It took a while to read between the lines and realize that like-minded people are here and that its ok to ignore all the eltist preaching to find them And yes you are right. I know a handful of divers who read the board for while and decide they don't want to sift through the preaching to find the gems.

I know by know you have probably given up on actually reading this thread due to the onslaught of preaching, but if you happen to see this post...thanks again

Jarrett,

Just like with religion, those who preach do so because they have a passion about what they do. They care. And if the approach is sometimes a bit rough, try to look at the underlying wisdom and learn from it. I know I have gotten something from almost every thread on here, because there are always little tidbits of information popping up. And even a lot of the people that you might think preach are giving out that information if you care to accept it.

 

[TheRedHead]

The whole industry works at making them feel sucure whether they should or not. If any of my rants help get even one diver to put just a little more thought into what they've been told or what they're doing then I'm happy.

The mom you described who freaked in the 30 feet of water was not secure by any definition I can think of. She certainly had a big failure in training and probably should not have been certified. Some people just shouldn't dive and they often dive for the wrong reasons: such as their spouse wants them to dive.

 

[BiggDawg]

It took a while to read between the lines and realize that like-minded people are here and that its ok to ignore all the eltist preaching to find them And yes you are right. I know a handful of divers who read the board for while and decide they don't want to sift through the preaching to find the gems.

I know by know you have probably given up on actually reading this thread due to the onslaught of preaching, but if you happen to see this post...thanks again

:jump013::multi: :wave-smil :multi: :jump013:

:luxhello: :luxhello: :luxhello: :luxhello:​

Jarrett,

Just like with religion, those who preach do so because they have a passion about what they do. They care.

And just like with religion, sometimes those who preach are just crackpot idealogues.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The issue that I have is with undertrained OW divers getting hurt or killed on dives where it is absolutely avoidable. And I have no issues with 'vacation' or 'casual' divers, or even necessarily with divers who use a DM to help them (we were all there once). I just want to see OW divers given the tools to *not* suck their tank dry and to *not* make rapid ascents. I'm not talking about any divers who know how to avoid those two circumstances.

You can say that again...like the lady who drowned 5 ft below the surface tangled in kelp with a full tank of air while her two buddies patiently waited on the bottom for her...descend together and be ready, I don't give a crap what they taught you in your OW, AOW, rescue, DM and instructor courses!

Or like the AOW student who lost a fin and ended up dead until they brought him back...get your trim right and learn to control up/down movement with buoyancy control regardless of the nonsense you were taught in your OW class!

Or like the AOW student I heard about the other day who came up missing on the" deep dive" though the instructor said she knew the diver was going to have problems because of skill issues...don't dive deep if you aren't any good shallow, reagrdless of what some instructor or DM is willing to "allow you to do".

Learn to do basic skills and manage common problems midwater regardless of what BS you were handed in your OW class.

If you don't have the time, aptitude or desire to learn some of those basics one way or the other (you are not going to get it in mainstream dive training), I would rather see you not dive. You can do what you want but if I have to pull you out I'm just going to have more to rant about on scubaboard!

 

[Walt1957]

And just like with religion, sometimes those who preach are just crackpot idealogues.

Absolutely! And sometimes the most mildly spoken words are the wisest. I just don't think it is wise to ignore the words based on the delivery. Take them for what they are worth no matter how tactfully (or tactlessly?) they are delivered.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The mom you described who freaked in the 30 feet of water was not secure by any definition I can think of. She certainly had a big failure in training and probably should not have been certified. Some people just shouldn't dive and they often dive for the wrong reasons: such as their spouse wants them to dive.

Interesting point of view. I have seen a lot of classes that I thought were lousy and even taught a bunch of them that I later came to believe were lousy but I have not often seen an instructor knowingly violate standards. I know it happens but I don't think it's the norm. I know tons of instructor who I think really stink but I can't think of many whop stink on purpose...a couple but not many.

If we make the leap and assume that the instructor followed standards (we have no reason to think otherwise) then, in fact, by the existing system she absolutely should have been certified.

She must have been feeling somewhat secure because she brought her young son with her on the dive. When PADI decided to allow the certification of ten year olds, I argued against it. I did so partly on the premis that while a pro might have the ability to supervise in the water, there was no reason to believe that the parent, who might also be a new diver, is able to. They explained to me that a parent would be driven by parental inclinations and would be inherantly qualified to look out for the safety of their young ones. I therefor believe that she was, in fact, secure until she became insecure at depth when she freaked and became more concerned with her own discomfort than she was with the safety of her young one.

No, I think she was properly certified (by the rules of the existing system) and made reasonable decisions based on the information that she had. Of course, I also believe that the information that she had is dog doodoo and she endangered herself, her husband and her child because she trusted her dive shop and the certification agency more than she would have trusted a car dealer. She thought they were the experts and she acted accordingly.

Maybe if they had spent some time here, I could havew scared them some...the Lord knows they sure scared me because I saw the whole thing and just about crapped my pants!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

As I read and read through the posts my enthusiasm was quickly drained away. I came to find out that I was stupid for going through a crappy PADI OW course especially since it was in Cozumel. And that I was going to die because I bought a certain type of regulator. And that I was an idiot for not using a BP/W and not having a regulator bungied around my neck. And most likely I was going to get bent and/or die of an arterial gas embollism on my very next dive.

So who told you those things? Seems to me that when I read those things on ScubaBoard, it's usually from someone claiming they were told them ... not from someone actually saying them.

It's like all the sensationalist radio shows out there ... claim that someone said something often enough and loudly enough, and people start to believe it.

Show me a thread where someone said those things to you or any other diver ... I don't think you can. I really think people make this stuff up just so they can complain about it.

It took a while to read between the lines and realize that like-minded people are here and that its ok to ignore all the eltist preaching to find them And yes you are right. I know a handful of divers who read the board for while and decide they don't want to sift through the preaching to find the gems.

Who are all these preaching elitists you refer to? Care to point me to some of the posts that offended you? Perhaps if we see what it is you're finding so offensive, we can actually address the issue, rather than just complaining about it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TheRedHead]

If we make the leap and assume that the instructor followed standards (we have no reason to think otherwise) then, in fact, by the existing system she absolutely should have been certified.

It seems to me that if she would have shown previous signs of panic on her OW checkouts. 30 feet deep? I did my CESA deeper that 30 feet. I have my doubts that my SSI instructor would certify someone who was so uncomfortable. Can't you just refuse to certify people and ask them to return with next class? Don't people ever fail open water?