In defense of Casual Divers

[k4man]

I couldn't agree more, mheaster

Do you resent that some busy, career involved individuals or parents that are busily trying to raise/nuture their kids can only tear themselves away to enjoy our sport for only 4 days - A week a year. That some of these like diving but prefer (and are willing to pay for) the accompaning Divemasters to assist and show them things thay would likely never be able to find on their own. They may find themselves with more time, disposable income and opportunities to become more accomplished, more frequent, divers later in life.

I for one, would have loved to do the free spirited, single, care-free (on the surface) life of diving when I was younger. However, for one, I didn't start my diving--or even have any real knowledge that it could have been an option for me--until 8-10 years into a marriage, a career, and a family.

For some, these dives are the only ones possible or practical throughout the year. YES, SAFETY SHOULD BE first and foremost. I think for most it is, whether it's 4-5 dives a year or per day.

I think that most DM and Instructors get into the business as much to share their love of diving with others as they do for themselves. And I, being far from considering myself an expert, enjoy diving with lesser experienced divers and sharing my passion (and sense or urgency for safety) with them. Too bad that it appears not all are in it for this reason.

 

[lamont]

I went looking for these numbers myself, Lamont, out of curiosity, so thanks for posting them. While at first glance, they seem very telling, in order for them to validate anything, you'd have to ask "what percentage do OW and AOW certs make up of the whole?" For instance (and these are hypothetical numbers), if 97% of all "divers" (and I use the term loosely), were only OW or OW/AOW certed, then even though they were 50-70% of the fatalities, that's a relatively small number (for parity, you'd expect them to be 97% of the fatalities)... capiche?

Anyway... I don't mean to digress... just my $.02.

it doesn't matter. if you're trying to reduce aggregate failure rate across the entire population of divers it doesn' t matter what the relative risk is of the different kinds of diving. 88% of divers who die are breathing air, so it makes more sense to go after them than after the technical and rebreather divers. i'm not remotely attempting to make an argument about what is more or less dangerous. there are more open water divers and more open water fatalities and it makes the most sense to try to educate them in order to prevent fatailites. and if you step away from the statistics for a minute, the open water divers are the ones most likely to get into trouble due to lack of exposure to information and they're going to be the most likely to be receptive to information.

 

[Diver Dennis]

I can see a lot of points of view on this thread. I've dived with tourists who needed DMs, understand the concern about lack of stills too. Personally, I could not dive 4 days per year. It would be too frustrating and painful. I have noticed recently more a shift from posters urging all new divers to get rescue certified to more of a emphasis on the failure of OW training. I have to wonder how this makes new divers feel? Maybe that would make a good thread.

The problem there Red is that once you have a C-Card, you are not required to keep up to date with your training and I doubt whether a lot of divers care. They just want to dive a few times a year on vacation and don't really think about diving until their next vacation.

As I posted previously, even an excellent training level can't be maintained over time doing 4 dives a year. Maybe a better question would be to ask if vacation divers feel they have adequate skills to do the kind of diving they do.

 

[BKP]

it doesn't matter. if you're trying to reduce aggregate failure rate across the entire population of divers it doesn' t matter what the relative risk is of the different kinds of diving. 88% of divers who die are breathing air, so it makes more sense to go after them than after the technical and rebreather divers. i'm not remotely attempting to make an argument about what is more or less dangerous. there are more open water divers and more open water fatalities and it makes the most sense to try to educate them in order to prevent fatailites. and if you step away from the statistics for a minute, the open water divers are the ones most likely to get into trouble due to lack of exposure to information and they're going to be the most likely to be receptive to information.

Yep... agreed. My responses are less statements than they are questions.

Common sense dictates, as Mike pointed out, that managing risks through *practice* and familiarity, mitigates those risks.

I'm a proponent of skill-practice... over and over... until it's second nature, and then some.

And as someone else said, it's about enjoying the dive, rather then fiddling with equipment...

 

[TheRedHead]

As I posted previously, even an excellent training level can't be maintained over time doing 4 dives a year. Maybe a better question would be to ask if vacation divers feel they have adequate skills to do the kind of diving they do.

Yeah, that would be an interesting question too.

I wonder, however, are we unintentionally discouraging new divers and/or making them feel insecure about their training?

 

[Diver Dennis]

I think you have hit on the best question to ask Red and exactly the point I think the OP was making. I don't think it is a bad thing to make new divers cautious but you're right, maybe we are making them insecure.

 

[lamont]

Ok you guys are all hitting the original post right on the head:

Who are any of you to say what makes a good diver?

Why should you care if I die? Lamont you are so worried about saving us all, how about sitting out side a bar and telling people not to drink and drive, or how about sitting on the highway and telling people not to go so fast untill them have lots of practice since that will lower highway death statistics?

We all take chances in everyday life. So let me take mine and please don't tell me how to do it.

I'm interested in technical and cave diving. I don't need a lecture about personal risk assessment. I want to do diving that only 2-3 years ago I thought was completely insane.

The issue that I have is with undertrained OW divers getting hurt or killed on dives where it is absolutely avoidable. And I have no issues with 'vacation' or 'casual' divers, or even necessarily with divers who use a DM to help them (we were all there once). I just want to see OW divers given the tools to *not* suck their tank dry and to *not* make rapid ascents. I'm not talking about any divers who know how to avoid those two circumstances.

And if I really wanted to save the entire planet I'd be over on rebreatherworld arguing that they're inhernatly more dangerous than OC and getting my *** banned, but life is too short and they're all grown ups....

 

[Halthron]

Do you resent that some busy, career involved individuals or parents that are busily trying to raise/nuture their kids can only tear themselves away to enjoy our sport for only 4 days - A week a year. That some of these like diving but prefer (and are willing to pay for) the accompaning Divemasters to assist and show them things thay would likely never be able to find on their own. They may find themselves with more time, disposable income and opportunities to become more accomplished, more frequent, divers later in life.

People make time for what they believe is important. If that person's kid is doing something, they may schedule work around it, I know I do. It's the really rare person who really is so busy they don't have any leisure time. It's the really rare location that doesn't have any divable sites within a 1-2 hr drive.

Vacation divers mostly choose to place their dive skills on the back burner by not diving when they can. Is that their right? Of course. Is it still their choice? Yes.

 

[Walt1957]

I wonder, however, are we unintentionally discouraging new divers and/or making them feel insecure about their training?

Knowing which might make a big difference, IMHO.

I am a new diver, but I am stubborn and not easily discouraged. Saying that nothing I have read here in any of the SB threads would discourage me doesn't answer for others who might give up with less reason.

The other part of the question, is it making them feel less secure? Probably. Is that a bad thing? I think not. Being less cocky about thinking you know something, when you don't ... is that bad, or might it cause a few people to better evaluate their limits?

I had the security of knowing that I grew up in the water and my comfort level was high. When I did a reef dive to 80' in the Bahamas I felt I knew what I was doing, and I felt comfortable with it. I had the added advantage of being the only diver not going off seperately, and I went down with the DM/Instructor as my personal buddy. If I had not found SB shortly after that I might have believed that I was ok going that deep on a regular basis. After a lot of practice at skills I now feel I am ready to work my way toward more depth, but I wasn't as ready then as I thought. I am not in a hurry to go deeper for the sake of more depth, there is a lot to see on the shallower dives. But I am also confident that I am ready to progress to further depths when appropriate to see things of interest such as wrecks.

I don't think that the training I got was deficient as far as general skills. I was ready to start diving on my own, and I had good training from a good instructor. But the one area that I suspect everyone would agree is lacking across the board is a way to evaluate what we are ready for next. How can we know what it is that we don't know? Don't dive beyond your abilities was stressed, but how can one quantify what their abilities are compared to what is needed until we are in a certain situation? Especially with trust me dives and encouragement to exceed the recommended limits from resort DMs. And sadly enough the lessons learned the hard way could be the last thing we learn, when diving is involved. A better explaination of some of the limitations AND THE REASONS might save lives a lot more than additional skills training. It is in the area of risk assessment (in which I would include gas management) that training is lacking the most in basic OW courses. There may be other things lacking in what is taught by some instructors, but that is what I feel I missed out on, not basic skills. And that is where SB helped me understand a lot more about diving and what I didn't know, so that now I think I am better able to assess if I will be exceeding my limits.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I can see a lot of points of view on this thread. I've dived with tourists who needed DMs, understand the concern about lack of stills too. Personally, I could not dive 4 days per year. It would be too frustrating and painful. I have noticed recently more a shift from posters urging all new divers to get rescue certified to more of a emphasis on the failure of OW training. I have to wonder how this makes new divers feel? Maybe that would make a good thread.

How it makes them feel? Truth is often disturbing. Every one who had even a little fun in their class wants to think that they had a good instructor. No one with a certification card in their pocket want to hear that it isn't worth the space it takes up.

I have to wonder...the little boy that I mentioned a few posts ago...how do you think he felt? How do you think his mother felt when she was in full panic and screaming as they pulled her from the water? How do you think the father felt. How do you think an instructor feels when he does things to the book according to the way he was trained and a student gets hurt or killed? How do you think that instructor feels when he learns a little more and finds out that he could have easily avoided it if he was only taught, and taught others, stuff that really makes sense? I can explain that one to you BTW!

So how do new divers who hear me go on about the uselessness and cluelessnes of the training agencies feel? Not as bad as they will if they are one of the unlucky ones! It's best to hear and consider it first even if it's a little painful.