If you were to redo the scuba industry how would you do it?

[Lorenzoid]

The simple fact is that simple, non-technical scuba diving is not nearly as hard as some people seem to want it to be. The academic issues are understandable to a typical 10-year old. The primary skill is not holding your breath. The current instructional system, even at its worse, produces divers who have an enormously successful safety record.

I agree the current training system works fine. It would be interesting to know what would happen if the industry eliminated the requirement of proof of training.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Simple:

I would change the legal environment. Wavers written in plain language would be fully legally binding. That would fix 90% of the problems with the dive industry in the US in one fell swoop. Competent adults should be able to give informed consent to any level of self risk they want, but if they do it should be legally binding on themselves and they alone should be liable to any third parties impacted by adverse outcomes of taking that risk(family etc.).

I would like to be able to hand a waiver to my pharmacist and get some really fun drugs.

 

[L13]

I would like to be able to hand a waiver to my pharmacist and get some really fun drugs.

You should be able to!

As long as it is informed consent on your part. And by informed consent, I do not mean you need to be an expert on pharmacology, only that you understand that pharmacologists have identified risks, and you understand the general magnitude and nature those risks.

But, the pharmacist (or anyone else accepting your waiver) is not responsible for determining your level of understanding. They only need to determine that you are a competent adult, and that you understand that a claim to understand the risks enumerated in the waiver is a legally binding transfer of responsibility for those risks and your understanding of them.

In general, the greater your understanding of the risks of a particular activity, the greater the risk that you should be able to consent to in that activity. If you claim understanding in a legal document (a waiver), you should be legally responsible for any deficiency in your understanding.

 

[boulderjohn]

You should be able to!

As long as it is informed consent on your part. And by informed consent, I do not mean you need to be an expert on pharmacology, only that you understand that pharmacologists have identified risks, and you understand the general magnitude and nature those risks.

But, the pharmacist (or anyone else accepting your waiver) is not responsible for determining your level of understanding. They only need to determine that you are a competent adult, and that you understand that a claim to understand the risks enumerated in the waiver is a legally binding transfer of responsibility for those risks and your understanding of them.

In general, the greater your understanding of the risks of a particular activity, the greater the risk that you should be able to consent to in that activity. If you claim understanding in a legal document (a waiver), you should be legally responsible for any deficiency in your understanding.

As things stand now, waivers absolutely do protect dive operations and instructors from minor and understandable issues, provided that it was truly informed consent--the diver truly knew what was signed and did not just write a signature on the highlighted line.

Waivers absolutely do not protect dive operations and instructors from gross negligence. They are expected to provide a certain level of service, and they can be held liable when they do not. If that pharmacy wrote the wrong dosage on a medication or put the wrong medication in a bottle, do you believe they should get away with it because of a signed waiver? If a dive boat headed to shore at the end of the day with you still in the water, should they get off because you signed a waiver in plain language?

 

[L13]

As things stand now, waivers absolutely do protect dive operations and instructors from minor and understandable issues, provided that it was truly informed consent--the diver truly knew what was signed and did not just write a signature on the highlighted line.

Waivers absolutely do not protect dive operations and instructors from gross negligence. They are expected to provide a certain level of service, and they can be held liable when they do not. If that pharmacy wrote the wrong dosage on a medication or put the wrong medication in a bottle, do you believe they should get away with it because of a signed waiver? If a dive boat headed to shore at the end of the day with you still in the water, should they get off because you signed a waiver in plain language?

1. Initials____ I understand that there is a significant risk that this particular pharmacy may provide the wrong dosage or wrong medication.
2. Initials____ I understand that there is a significant risk that this particular dive boat may head for shore at the end of the day leaving me still in the water.

If any of the above occur, I _______________________ assume complete responsibility for the outcome.

Signed_________________________



Otherwise no, those risks are not explained and accepted in plain language.

 

[Subcooled]

Good point.
However scuba has grown to the point beyond just a few extreme hobbyists.
I’m thinking if getting on dive boats. They want to know people have good grasp of diving physiology/do’s and dont’s. There’s a lot more to it now than just “don’t hold your breath”.

Oh, the rise of consumerism...
The outsourcing of responsibility...

I cannot blame the diveshops and dive operators, however.

 

[Subcooled]

Simple:

I would change the legal environment. Wavers written in plain language would be fully legally binding. That would fix 90% of the problems with the dive industry in the US in one fell swoop. Competent adults should be able to give informed consent to any level of self risk they want, but if they do it should be legally binding on themselves and they alone should be liable to any third parties impacted by adverse outcomes of taking that risk(family etc.).

Criminal negligence aside, true.

Criminal negligence in diving should probably be defined as wrong gas or faulty equipment or grossly incorrect dive breafing. Duty of care is probbaly not a well enough defined concept to be addressed in waivers.

 

[L13]

Criminal negligence aside, true.

Criminal negligence in diving should probably be defined as wrong gas or faulty equipment or grossly incorrect dive breafing. Duty of care is probbaly not a well enough defined concept to be addressed in waivers.

Well, we are talking a fantasy world here (see thread title), so I will postulate waivers that don't attempt to do what they shouldn't.

 

[SlugLife]

Heck yeah.

I love a good shore dive where I can do anything I want. People need to take some personal responsibilty.

The idea that your ''dive op protects you'', has hurt plenty.

I think it's fine if an op is protecting themselves from you. For example, perhaps a car-rental will want a driver's license. The problem is many have taken it upon themselves to act as the Scuba Police. Then there are a few questionable areas which appear to be money-grabs, like the use of annual VIPs.

If thats the point of view you want to take. My motorcycle is 1000 times more dangerous than any diving that Ive done so far.

Backpacking, week long, is one of the most dangerous hobbies, because it looks super easy and perfecfly safe. But it can go sideways quick. It's on par with diving IMO.

On my way home from my most recent scuba-dives, I drove past a wreck between a motorcycle (not a sports-bike, maybe a Harley) and a smaller SUV. The SUV's front bumper was absolutely destroyed, perhaps worse than I'd expect on a 40mph residential street (head on?)

My comment to my (non-scuba) friend was "I'd love to have and ride a motorcycle, but I know it would only be a matter of time before that's me."

 

[boulderjohn]

1. Initials____ I understand that there is a significant risk that this particular pharmacy may provide the wrong dosage or wrong medication.
2. Initials____ I understand that there is a significant risk that this particular dive boat may head for shore at the end of the day leaving me still in the water.

If any of the above occur, I _______________________ assume complete responsibility for the outcome.

Signed_________________________



Otherwise no, those risks are not explained and accepted in plain language.

I see. You are calling for a 30+ page liability waiver in which the diver signs off on anything that could possibly happen on a dive trip.

Initials_______________ I understand the divemaster or captain may go insane during the surface interval and drill out my right eye with a corkscrew.