I like guns.

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Skeet is a game with two birds being thrown at the same time at various stations. Methinks you were shooting "trap" which is usually presented as a "single bird".

$14,000 guns with gold inlays do shoot better. It's the gold trigger, actually, less electrical resistance.
I do not pretend to know much about trap or skeet, or high end scatterguns.
It appears from an internet search that you are correct in your description of trap vs skeet, but the instructor showing us the ropes yesterday at that-too-expensive-for-this-working-man "sportsman's club" my employer/friend belongs too, most definitely called the game skeet several times when he was saying that it was OK to shoulder the weapon prior to calling for the bird when shooting skeet.

Somehow I doubt the gun the fellow was using was as much the reason he shot so well, and the probably hundreds of hours that man seems to have been shooting.

When I was a teen my dad belonged to a rustic club that had three trap or skeet houses, a high and low to the sides, and one in the middle. Like him I spent most of my time with rifles and never did much wingshooting, and my first 870 he gave me at 17 was probably the only shotgun in the family, other than an ancient 410. If my dad took birds, it was with head shots using his old 95 Winchester in 30:40, with open sights. He was raised in eastern Washington and Idaho and the son of a professional bronco breaker, who later tried his hand at cattle ranching as well as other subsistence type jobs in the back country. In those years before WWII everything he and his dad had hunted to live on was taken by rifle. I witnessed him make some truly amazing shots with that old lever action with just open, buck horn sights.
 
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The history of those bullpup style weapons as an intermediate between machine pistols and automatic rifles goes back to some experiments during WW1. A short light bullpup style machine pistol was patented by a French arms designer, Henri Delacre, but was never produced.

After WW2 a team in the UK at Enfield worked on a design developed by Stefan Januszewski, an ingenious Polish arms engineer who had taken refuge in Great Britain after the Communists took over in Poland. Januszewski's weapon was produced in some numbers, and is very much like current bullpups, in some respects identical. It was, by all accounts, an extremely effective beautifully functioning weapon using a shortened 7mm casing.

Because the people at the Pentagon were still fixated on full sized rifle rounds, and because the US was financing NATO and everything else, they got their way, compromising only on replacing the .30-06 with the .308, and retaining Garands and M14s as infantry weapons. This lasted until Vietnam, when, finally, the infinitely more handy and effective M16 was adopted.

Januzewski's fantastic little weapon was lost in the political shuffle, but examples still exist, and by all accounts it is one of the best infantry weapons ever created. Small, short, light, powerful round, moderate recoil, extremely dependable and accurate. It has greatly influenced the newer bullpup weapons being developed.

I found a pic of one.

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I had never heard of all of that on the bullpup and it's not surprising. I did know that we shot down the 7mm round which was the 280 British round.

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GypsyJim- Your Papa soundslike he was an amazing hunter.

Trap and Skeet are often played on the same piece of earth, but they use distinctly different mechanical throwers of the clay pigeons.

On a Skeet field, shooters stand in pre-set stations and have "birds" thrown from those "houses"... far left & right edges of the field in a criss-crossing pattern. Many of the shots are presented as "pairs", two at a time. Thus, the popularity of double barrel shotguns, esp the over/under. Skeet becomes more challenging when the shooter uses a smaller shotgun, stepping down from the 12 gauge, to the 20 gge, 28gge and the true challenge, the .410 bore gun. Not much shot comes out of these guns, the smaller you get. You always know exactly where the birds will appear, but that doesn't seem to make it any easier. You can shoot this game with any standard "field" or hunting gun. Skeet Clubs are recognized by paved parking lots, good landscaping, higher end import sedans with Ducks Unlimited stickers, and upper level executives opening leather and canvas gun cases (won at the local Ducks Unlimited Banquet) to reveal $20,000 Kolar over and unders with 4 different sub-caliber tubes. These guys are generally highly competitive, type AA, and really don't like themselves or anyone else. Gun handling is elegant and choreographed, adherence to safety rules is sometimes iffy.

A Trap shooting field? That would be from that house (aka bunker) that you refer to, sitting in the middle of the downrange area. It can throw a bird randomly in any one of 5 directions. Most trap is shot as a "singles" game, one bird thrown per "pull". Real-deal dedicated trap guns are as Rail Dragsters are to a Toyota Camry. They are heavy, long and don't have to swing or move very well. Of course, it can be shot with any gun, but the standard is a single barrel 12gge with a fairly tight choke. Difficulty in this game is blended-in by shooting from stations further back from the throwing house. Starting at 16 yards, one can progress to 27 yards in most installations. Olympic Trap is for experts and is just mind bending in terms of speed. Trap Clubs are easily recognized by the high number of handicapped parking spots, older model land yachts, camper caps, and station wagons with NRA Life Member stickers on the back window. Most of them will offer good advice and friendly counsel on the game, some very few are wound very tightly and are great fun to mess with. You can either make comments about their shots from behind the line, or my favorite- stand to their left with my autoloading shotgun and pitch ejected shells near their feet just before it is their turn... get it? Younger Trap Shooters are generally teenaged Olympic hopefuls seeking escape from the high-plains States or newer shooters that were lured to the Trap Club by the sound of gunfire, similar to a "walker". Most of the serious old men are still banging away with Browning BT-99 32" (Trap Full) single shots, the pricier guns are under-barrel high rib contraptions, ie the Ljutic Space Gun. These are pricey, but way cheaper than a Sporting Clays gun can get, a discussed below. An ancient Model 12 exposed hammer gun has won many Club shoots.

Trap got it's name from the original version where, when the shooter called, "pull", the young boy standing downrange would "pull" upwards the gate on a cage and allow a live pigeon to escape. I don't know if we switched to clay pigeons because they were cheaper or there were fewer and fewer young people that would stand downrange while men with a flask in their pocket waved shotguns about. Times were tough back then, and a tuppence is a tuppence.

Both of these games are kind-of like bowling to me. It is a muscle memory game, it is a game of concentration and focus, not my strong suits. Like bowling, the point of all of this is to shoot a perfect game of 25 "dead birds", and then do that another 975 times. If so, you might be good enough to not get a place on the Olympic Team. Kinda' boring to me, but some folks like it. These games are on the wane, now being supplanted by "5 Stand".

You can play "5 Stand" on the same field as Trap or Skeet, but sometimes it is better to have more real estate. This game places shooters in one each of five rotating stands or shooting positions. You are presented with birds from varying angles and trajectories. There might be 4 or even 9 different clay pigeon machines. Some birds are thrown as singles, others as doubles on report (shoot one, then the other one flies) or true pairs (they are both thrown simultaneously). You can shoot this with any field gun. 5 Stand was created as a quick and compact version of "Sporting Clays" and is ideal for weekends when you would likely otherwise be on your wife's $#!† list for being gone all day, versus just the morning. Here you will see minivans with those stick-figure families on the back window.

Sporting Clays is described as "Golf with a Shotgun". (Although when on a golf course, I prefer the AR15) :wink: Take a field or a wooded area, set up 10 throwers and mark some shooting stations, trying to simulate various types of game found in the field. (Common game that you won't piss your pants if confronted with the real thing and you're standing there with that $20,000 shotgun- no Bull Elephants or charging Rhinos, just little cuddly Disney character stuff) It consists of 100 clays and the target presentations are made with entirely different sized and style of clay discs than for trap/skeet. These can be designed to bounce and mimic a rabbit, possibly a teal that blasts straight up into the sky. You can spot a Sporting Clays course by the high-end SUV's, Lexum, or BMW's in the crushed limestone parking lot. They generally dress out of the Eddie Bauer catalog and are fiercely competitive, ordering "call" spirits at the Club bar afterwards. There may be the associated, refitted and highly customized "golf cart" with shotgun racks and ammo trays, suitable to hold all of that weight.

Sporting Clays is a fairly recent import into the US, and for the last 25 years it exploded in popularity among the guys (and a few milfy women) who realized that they were really too young to play golf. These over/under shotguns disassemble and fit into nice, compact, color-matching take-down cases, all fitting into the trunk of a BMW Z8. Much like the allure of the bright shiny metal objects as we find in dive shops, the Sporting Clays shooter can really piss away huge, metric, cubic dollars and get a pretty fancy shootin' iron. Some folks change chokes (metal devices that screw into the end of the barrel) so often to adjust shot patterns- they actually use a power screw-driver tool adapted for this ritual. They will carry bottled water, yet still pee in the bushes. Both are because you are usually quite a ways away from anything else.

Trap is played with the gun in position on your shoulder and pointed downrange and ready. Skeet, you can do either "low gun" or most do it "mounted" (ready to swing and shoot). Sporting Clays was traditionally a "low gun" game, but similar to the dumbing down of snow skiing through modified equipment, it was made easier to entice more new participants. Even though you can shoot most events with a mounted gun, I learned the whole deal as a low-gun shooter, and changing it over now isn't going to happen for me. This disadvantage gives another justification for my mediocre scores.

Just like golf, there are varying degrees of self-flagellation, degradation, and masochism that you can sign-up for. I was a member of a Club that was rated as an "A" level, but they toughened up the birds (shots/targets) to what is referred to as "AA". I literally could not locate or spot some of the birds as they were being thrown. I took my $1100 Ruger Red Label 12 and went home, not renewing my $900 yearly membership. I was driving a 1989 Camry Wagon at the time, and it was brown on top of it, so there's that to consider. I stood out like a sore thumb, and I try to not go where i am not wanted.

Then they can go out, pay the $75 to play the 100 birds, shoot $40 worth of shells, tip the "puller" $10 and get in line to get their ass dusted-off by the likes of GypsyJim's father, an old man with a battered Remington 870 pump.
 
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Sporting clays sounds like the most fun. Could only be made more fun if the clays came towards the shooter, instead of away or parallel...
 
Sporting clays sounds like the most fun. Could only be made more fun if the clays came towards the shooter, instead of away or parallel...

That's one of my favorite "target presentations". I like them close, fast and whistling over my head from any direction. This is why I really like a Sporting Clays course that I can shoot with my tiny .410 bore "pencil gun".

On that kind of target presentation, I really enjoy being showered with the broken clay (if and when) I manage to smash it.
 
+1 for sporting clays. We used to belong to a club that had skeet, trap, 5-station, and sporting clays. With a group of friends who shoot because it's fun, sporting clays is by far the most entertaining. It's a little rough on the trees in the area.
 
What you described Doc, as the classic Trap set up is exactly the range that this club has, but they most certainly were calling it skeet. High ticket break action Singles or Over-and-Unders with the extremely high sight rail seemed to be the gun of choice.

If I go back (which I would like to, if I am re-invited) I will try to pick up a vented rib barrel for my 870, and just use that same old work horse weapon. I gave my son and daughter each one of my original 870's, and this newer one I have is OK, but not as well built, or finished as well as either of my older 870's were. For years I used to use a really old side by side 12 double for birds and rabbits, and I loved carrying that gun in the woods, but I had to retire it when the barrel started showing signs of stress.

I used to toss clays with a friend who had an old double 410, which was a ton of fun, as my launcher could throw two birds. THAT is one gun I would like to stumble across at a reasonable price someday. Shooting clays with his 410 was a true challenge.

---------- Post added October 22nd, 2013 at 08:48 AM ----------

I know I must have upset a couple of the shooters, because even though I am not shooting an autoloader, I tend to instantly, instinctively eject the spent shell and send it flying (on the farm we always threw multiple birds, and shot as long as there was a bird in the air, because it felt more like real life hunting. And it was DAMNED FUN!)
 
As posted before, I have a single shot Winchester Model 37 from a long time back - 1936 (thumb cock, no true "hammer", and no safety). I always disliked running modern loads through it (unless it was low brass). One of the "special finds" I managed was a Savage "410er" that adapted a 12ga to shoot .410 rounds. This makes that gun a sweet piece for clays. The pattern produced is just wonderful.

I don't get to play with it much though.......
 
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