Today I picked up 3 boxes of 325 Federal 22LR 40 gr solids for $18+ each at Wally's. The clerk was just stocking the case, and their supply of these was gone in minutes.
I like guns.
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Mike
Contributor
Got a tip that 45acp was in stock at Cabellas. Sure enough, 10 boxes were quickly scarfed up into my shopping cart.
Going out shooting tomorrow mornig. Picked up 5 pumpkins from Walmart and a few cases of fun things that will explode in liquid pleasure and a sack full of stuffed animals from the local Arc store.
The featured artists tomorrow will be 45 and 9mm pistols. A m1 garand and a Mosin Nagant.
The carnage should be epic.
Going out shooting tomorrow mornig. Picked up 5 pumpkins from Walmart and a few cases of fun things that will explode in liquid pleasure and a sack full of stuffed animals from the local Arc store.
The featured artists tomorrow will be 45 and 9mm pistols. A m1 garand and a Mosin Nagant.
The carnage should be epic.
Kevrumbo
Banned
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Here's what's epic carnage (and you've got two of these rifles used during one of the last great conventional wars between nations of the 20th Century):
Tae Guk Gi: The Brotherhood of War - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games
oldschoolto
Contributor
The difference between the 2-3/4 mag and the 3" mag ..... And I don't see anyone promoting the 20 ga that you think is top for home defense...
Jim....
- No, the 'Magnum' shells do not have more power.
Shotgun shells are not same as handgun & rifle rounds as in regard to the marketing term of "Magnum".
All that 'magnum' means in a shotgun shell is that the amount of volume for the projectiles is greater allowing for greater payload and thus increased shell length as well as by that increased felt recoil due to mass.
Shotgun shell length determines payload...NOT powder charge quantity or density as in handgun and rifle rounds.
Below is quote of item I'd posted on this exact subject on June 7th at another gunfu forum:
* The components of a shotgun 'shell'
Source - Parts of Shotgun Shell
Informational: A shotgun does NOT fire 'bullets' nor does it use 'cartridges' or 'rounds'. Rifles and handguns fire those.
As well a shotgun that is labeled as "Magnum" is not the same by meaning as that of a handgun or rifle as in relation to the shell it is designed to support. Remember this...Very many people including even gun experienced people do not know/understand this fact.
~~~
Source - Ammunition shell sizes
Informational: Generally any shotgun shell at 3" or longer is referred to by industry under the _marketing_ term of being 'Magnum'. The only difference is the amount of payload (shot balls) per given shot size per gauge.
With handgun rounds and rifle cartridges the term 'Magnum' is applied to mean a greater amount of powder than normal is packed within the casing. That is not the case with modern shotguns. The only exception being antique, as in not modern, blackpowder shotguns. Generally not relevant but to specialty gun owners, and they make their own shells rather than buy them from WalMart or Joe's Gun Shop.
When you fire a 'high capacity' shotgun shell, widely marketed as being "Magnum", the increased recoil you feel (aka 'felt recoil') is a function of the payload AND the specific weight of the shotgun you happen to fire it out of.
Velocity figures for all commercially loaded shells as from 2 3/4" up to 3.5" across a given product family will be pretty much same. Why?
Because there is not additional powder, just additional payload volume.
For more reading toward recoil as specifically related to shotguns and shotgun ammunition go to the following:
* Shotgun Report ~ 'Recoil'
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec...ts/Recoil.html
* Wikipedia ~ 'Recoil'
Recoil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
* What is Recoil and How is it Calculated?
Topic of the Month
* How to figure shotgun recoil?
Shotguns / Shotgun Recoil Formula
All of the above is specific to commercially loaded shotgun shell ammunition which is what at least 99% of shotgunners in general never mind home defense users in specific would have experience with over the course of their shotgun handling lives.
The only exceptions to the above are those who either load their own homemade modern shotgun shells and do so going greater than commercial loading suggestions ('wildcat' loads) and/or those who are using antique type shotguns and firing from shells or even brass casings using blackpowder as a propellant; Black Powder Shotgun Shells
For information on shotshell loading (reloading) including a primer on 'recoil'as related to shotguns in specific, point your browser here:
* General Information on Shotshell Reloading
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/P...0reloading.pdf
The reason that I take the time to detail this is because _very_ often I see online as well as run into people IRL, including students, who assume or even believe that 'Magnum' shotgun shells are directly akin to that of magnum type handgun and rifle rounds as by marketing nomenclature.
Why this belief endures is a mystery to me considering that clear evidence against as much is obvious when one actually compares two shells (magnum and non-magnum) to each other as side by side. But... (!) ...This does require the viewer to have an actual understanding toward the construction of a shotgun shell including it's components, to which then there would be no question on this subject to start.
IMHO use of 'Magnum' shells is not of high purpose for HD, or general survival, use. The gain in increased payload/pellet density as against that of the increased recoil due to the increase in overall payload mass is not worth the increased expense in felt recoil nor the ammunition cost.
Magnum shells were developed to provide hunters with a greater opportunity to kill game animal targets as at distance (which is not up close as in HD and tactical application) by increasing the percentage of projectiles into the target AND increasing the percentage odds of making a strike to the game animal target by any number of projectiles (balls) as within the shell without respect to barrel choke type and distance of the target as measured from the muzzle.
Nobody will have a HD situation that justifys use of 'Magnum' _payload_ ammunition in that the threat as a target is so far out in relative distance or so small in relative size or so thick in relative hide density (natural body armor) that an increased or even greatly increased (3.5" shell) becomes a necessity at all...As opposed to ability to fire a second shell (2 3/4") more/much more quickly and to be able to physically withstand the first and/or second shot with less/no immediate physical wounding/injury to the shooter by way of felt and actual recoil forces.
As to magazine capacity it's IMHO pretty much a functional wash as generally 3" Magnum shells only cost you one shell capacity difference. Meaning you gain one additional shell when going to 2 3/4".
If you in a HD situation (not military and not police...Nor are you hunting snow geese at 50+ yds.) find yourself having to fire greater than 2 or 3 shells max...Then you need to transition to another and better weapon system such as a handgun or rifle of higher capacity and/or potential threat specific stopping power.
Bottom line:
2 3/4" FTW
- Janq
"Recoil is the 'kick' given by a gun when it is fired. In technical terms, this kick is caused by the gun's backward momentum, which exactly balances the forward momentum of the projectile. In most small arms, the momentum is transferred to the ground through the body of the shooter...
The change in momentum results in a force which, according to Newton's second law, is equal to the time derivative of the backward momentum of the gun. The backward momentum is equal to the mass of the gun multiplied by its reverse velocity. This backward momentum is equal, by the law of conservation of momentum, to the forward momentum of the ejecta of the gun (the projectile(s), wad, sabot, propellant gases, and so on). Provided that the mass and velocity of the ejecta are known, it is possible to calculate its momentum and thus the recoil." - Wikipedia entry explaining 'Recoil'Last edited by Janq; June 28th, 2010 at 01:19 PM.
Or, to put some of this more simply, larger gauges, magnum loads, and longer shells do not fire pellets significantly faster or harder; there are just more of them. Recoil is a precise mirror of the mass/velocity of the projectile. Since the gun has much more weight than the projectile (in sporting weapons) the velocity and therefore the perceived effect of the equal and opposite reaction is greatly reduced.
Green_Manelishi
Contributor
Once again the document you share in an attempt to make your case does the exact opposite.
I never said 20 gauge was ideal, I said it was more than sufficient for the limited range within a building.
You must have me confused with a noob who has no actual experience with firearms. On the contrary I have more than many, less than some.
In closing I will echo the comments of others who asked how many folks you have personally shot with your 3" shells and then suggest if the place you live is so prone to invasion you might make the wise decision and move. Or, you could post a sign stating "Warning: I shot the first x invaders of my home. You do not want to be number x+1."
---------- Post added October 19th, 2013 at 11:03 AM ----------
To put it even more simply: if the (weight of the) gun remains the same, a magnum load will generate more recoil than a non-magnum load. At some point that perceived (or real) pounding becomes excessive to the shooter for the benefit gained by the larger payload and/or increased velocity. This is true for handgun, rifles or shotguns. There is a reason the frisbees downloaded the 10mm to a .40 Short and Wimpy.
We used to live in an area (almost 40 years ago) that inspired me to put this on the doors and windows:
Warning
Intruders will be shot
---------- Post added October 19th, 2013 at 11:13 AM ----------
We moved as soon as the lease ran out.
Warning
Intruders will be shot
---------- Post added October 19th, 2013 at 11:13 AM ----------
We moved as soon as the lease ran out.
The difference between the 2-3/4 mag and the 3" mag ..... And I don't see anyone promoting the 20 ga that you think is top for home defense...
Jim....
Shotgun shells are not same as handgun & rifle rounds as in regard to the marketing term of "Magnum".
All that 'magnum' means in a shotgun shell is that the amount of volume for the projectiles is greater allowing for greater payload and thus increased shell length as well as by that increased felt recoil due to mass.
Shotgun shell length determines payload...NOT powder charge quantity or density as in handgun and rifle rounds.
Below is quote of item I'd posted on this exact subject on June 7th at another gunfu forum:
* The components of a shotgun 'shell'
Source - Parts of Shotgun Shell
Informational: A shotgun does NOT fire 'bullets' nor does it use 'cartridges' or 'rounds'. Rifles and handguns fire those.
As well a shotgun that is labeled as "Magnum" is not the same by meaning as that of a handgun or rifle as in relation to the shell it is designed to support. Remember this...Very many people including even gun experienced people do not know/understand this fact.
~~~
Source - Ammunition shell sizes
Informational: Generally any shotgun shell at 3" or longer is referred to by industry under the _marketing_ term of being 'Magnum'. The only difference is the amount of payload (shot balls) per given shot size per gauge.
With handgun rounds and rifle cartridges the term 'Magnum' is applied to mean a greater amount of powder than normal is packed within the casing. That is not the case with modern shotguns. The only exception being antique, as in not modern, blackpowder shotguns. Generally not relevant but to specialty gun owners, and they make their own shells rather than buy them from WalMart or Joe's Gun Shop.
When you fire a 'high capacity' shotgun shell, widely marketed as being "Magnum", the increased recoil you feel (aka 'felt recoil') is a function of the payload AND the specific weight of the shotgun you happen to fire it out of.
Velocity figures for all commercially loaded shells as from 2 3/4" up to 3.5" across a given product family will be pretty much same. Why?
Because there is not additional powder, just additional payload volume.
For more reading toward recoil as specifically related to shotguns and shotgun ammunition go to the following:
* Shotgun Report ~ 'Recoil'
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTec...ts/Recoil.html
* Wikipedia ~ 'Recoil'
Recoil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
* What is Recoil and How is it Calculated?
Topic of the Month
* How to figure shotgun recoil?
Shotguns / Shotgun Recoil Formula
All of the above is specific to commercially loaded shotgun shell ammunition which is what at least 99% of shotgunners in general never mind home defense users in specific would have experience with over the course of their shotgun handling lives.
The only exceptions to the above are those who either load their own homemade modern shotgun shells and do so going greater than commercial loading suggestions ('wildcat' loads) and/or those who are using antique type shotguns and firing from shells or even brass casings using blackpowder as a propellant; Black Powder Shotgun Shells
For information on shotshell loading (reloading) including a primer on 'recoil'as related to shotguns in specific, point your browser here:
* General Information on Shotshell Reloading
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/P...0reloading.pdf
The reason that I take the time to detail this is because _very_ often I see online as well as run into people IRL, including students, who assume or even believe that 'Magnum' shotgun shells are directly akin to that of magnum type handgun and rifle rounds as by marketing nomenclature.
Why this belief endures is a mystery to me considering that clear evidence against as much is obvious when one actually compares two shells (magnum and non-magnum) to each other as side by side. But... (!) ...This does require the viewer to have an actual understanding toward the construction of a shotgun shell including it's components, to which then there would be no question on this subject to start.
IMHO use of 'Magnum' shells is not of high purpose for HD, or general survival, use. The gain in increased payload/pellet density as against that of the increased recoil due to the increase in overall payload mass is not worth the increased expense in felt recoil nor the ammunition cost.
Magnum shells were developed to provide hunters with a greater opportunity to kill game animal targets as at distance (which is not up close as in HD and tactical application) by increasing the percentage of projectiles into the target AND increasing the percentage odds of making a strike to the game animal target by any number of projectiles (balls) as within the shell without respect to barrel choke type and distance of the target as measured from the muzzle.
Nobody will have a HD situation that justifys use of 'Magnum' _payload_ ammunition in that the threat as a target is so far out in relative distance or so small in relative size or so thick in relative hide density (natural body armor) that an increased or even greatly increased (3.5" shell) becomes a necessity at all...As opposed to ability to fire a second shell (2 3/4") more/much more quickly and to be able to physically withstand the first and/or second shot with less/no immediate physical wounding/injury to the shooter by way of felt and actual recoil forces.
As to magazine capacity it's IMHO pretty much a functional wash as generally 3" Magnum shells only cost you one shell capacity difference. Meaning you gain one additional shell when going to 2 3/4".
If you in a HD situation (not military and not police...Nor are you hunting snow geese at 50+ yds.) find yourself having to fire greater than 2 or 3 shells max...Then you need to transition to another and better weapon system such as a handgun or rifle of higher capacity and/or potential threat specific stopping power.
Bottom line:
2 3/4" FTW
- Janq
"Recoil is the 'kick' given by a gun when it is fired. In technical terms, this kick is caused by the gun's backward momentum, which exactly balances the forward momentum of the projectile. In most small arms, the momentum is transferred to the ground through the body of the shooter...
The change in momentum results in a force which, according to Newton's second law, is equal to the time derivative of the backward momentum of the gun. The backward momentum is equal to the mass of the gun multiplied by its reverse velocity. This backward momentum is equal, by the law of conservation of momentum, to the forward momentum of the ejecta of the gun (the projectile(s), wad, sabot, propellant gases, and so on). Provided that the mass and velocity of the ejecta are known, it is possible to calculate its momentum and thus the recoil." - Wikipedia entry explaining 'Recoil'Last edited by Janq; June 28th, 2010 at 01:19 PM.
You are full of balony
Who knew I could learn physics and how not to die while scuba diving on the same forum...
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