Hydrostatic testing...how much can the tank expand and still pass?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

charlesml3

Contributor
Messages
1,043
Reaction score
166
Location
Raleigh, NC
# of dives
500 - 999
Gang,

Another "I'm just curious about this" kind of question. Anyway, I know how they do hydrostatic testing. Fill the tank with water and immerse it in a chamber of water. Force water into the tank to bring it to 5/3 of working pressure and measure how much water is displaced in the chamber.

So a couple of questions if any one knows:

-How much water needs to be jammed into the tank to bring it up to 5/3 working pressure? I wouldn't think it would be much.

-How much water can be displaced and the tank still pass?

Thanks!

-Charles
 
You don't actually measure the volume of water required to increase the pressure. If the system were perfectly hydraulic that volume would be 0. You would simply be increasing the pressure placed upon the uncompressible liquid. All systems will have some compressable air space trapped in them. And so, require a small volume of water be added by the pump. The closer to hydraulic the system, the quicker the pump would increase the pressure at any given drive pressure and flow rate.

It's not so much the initial expansion that is of concern, but the permanent expansion. Some but not all tanks will have an acceptable maximum expansion. What is of concern is how much of that expansion remains after pressure has been relieved(permanent expansion). 10% for most al and 3aa steel, 5% for most fiber wrapped tanks. Our data base has the individual parameters for probably over a hundred different tank ratings and dimensions.

In the case of most dive tanks: Ideally, the tank returns to it's original volume with no permanent expansion. Permanent expansion upto but not including %10 is still a pass. However, a hydro tech who is looking at a tank with 9% permanent and any other telltale signs that it is not fit for service may exercise the, "or any reason to believe the tank is not fit for service" clause.

Imagine the old rubber band in your desk drawer. We're concerned with finding the ones that no longer return to their original width and thickness after having been stretched.

On average an Al 80 will displace around 70-75 cc of water at 5000psi.

Does this answer your question?
 
Depends on the cylinder ... you can dig this up on line but my suggestion would be take an hour and visit your local hydro facility and tell them you want to learn about the process some more. Most will take the time if they are not super busy.

Water is basicallly an incompressable fluid so the delta is not the much more than the total volume of the cylinder. Also is not just how water is displaced via the cylinder expansion when under pressure but also the difference in the initial and final cylinder volume after being pressurized.
 
Gang,

Another "I'm just curious about this" kind of question. Anyway, I know how they do hydrostatic testing. Fill the tank with water and immerse it in a chamber of water. Force water into the tank to bring it to 5/3 of working pressure and measure how much water is displaced in the chamber.

So a couple of questions if any one knows:

-How much water needs to be jammed into the tank to bring it up to 5/3 working pressure? I wouldn't think it would be much.

-How much water can be displaced and the tank still pass?

Thanks!

-Charles



You can read the entire testing at the DOT website. CFR 49 part 178.

But it states:
§ 178.255-12 Pressure test.



(a) Each completed portable tank prior to application of lining shall be tested before being put into transportation service by completely filling the tank with water or other liquid having a similar viscosity, the temperature of which shall not exceed 100 °F during the test, and applying a pressure of 60 psig. The tank shall be capable of holding the prescribed pressure for at least 10 minutes without leakage, evidence of impending failure, or failure. All closures shall be in place while the test is made and the pressure shall be gauged at the top of the tank. Safety devices and/or vents shall be plugged during this test.



Also, it states "maximum allowable stress" based off the material. There is a math formula based of wall thickness, design, fraction of yeild strenght and tensile strengths. The vendor should be DOT certified to do these.
 
You can read the entire testing at the DOT website. CFR 49 part 178.

But it states:
§ 178.255-12 Pressure test.



(a) Each completed portable tank prior to application of lining shall be tested before being put into transportation service by completely filling the tank with water or other liquid having a similar viscosity, the temperature of which shall not exceed 100 °F during the test, and applying a pressure of 60 psig. The tank shall be capable of holding the prescribed pressure for at least 10 minutes without leakage, evidence of impending failure, or failure. All closures shall be in place while the test is made and the pressure shall be gauged at the top of the tank. Safety devices and/or vents shall be plugged during this test.



Also, it states "maximum allowable stress" based off the material. There is a math formula based of wall thickness, design, fraction of yeild strenght and tensile strengths. The vendor should be DOT certified to do these.

I think that paragraph is for low pressure cylinders.
 
You don't actually measure the volume of water required to increase the pressure. If the system were perfectly hydraulic that volume would be 0. You would simply be increasing the pressure placed upon the uncompressible liquid. All systems will have some compressable air space trapped in them. And so, require a small volume of water be added by the pump. The closer to hydraulic the system, the quicker the pump would increase the pressure at any given drive pressure and flow rate.

It's not so much the initial expansion that is of concern, but the permanent expansion. Some but not all tanks will have an acceptable maximum expansion. What is of concern is how much of that expansion remains after pressure has been relieved(permanent expansion). 10% for most al and 3aa steel, 5% for most fiber wrapped tanks. Our data base has the individual parameters for probably over a hundred different tank ratings and dimensions.

In the case of most dive tanks: Ideally, the tank returns to it's original volume with no permanent expansion. Permanent expansion upto but not including %10 is still a pass. However, a hydro tech who is looking at a tank with 9% permanent and any other telltale signs that it is not fit for service may exercise the, "or any reason to believe the tank is not fit for service" clause.

Imagine the old rubber band in your desk drawer. We're concerned with finding the ones that no longer return to their original width and thickness after having been stretched.

On average an Al 80 will displace around 70-75 cc of water at 5000psi.

Does this answer your question?


For the purpose of hydrostatic testing the water is assumed to be incompressible (and all the air should be evacuated). The volume you are pushing into the tank should be the exact amount (or very close) to the volume the displacement measurement from the outside jacket. You are indirectly measuring tank wall deflection with the volume change.

As a mater of fact, you actually can take direct measurement of the internal fluid volume change as pressure is increased. It is allowed per CFR 49, but it is acknowledge that the test is not as precise (and therefore, not acceptable for + stamping on the appropriate tanks).


About the 10% residual permanent expansion:

Per CFR49 section 180.205:
(i) Cylinder condemnation. (1) A cylinder
must be condemned when—

(iv) For a DOT specification cylinder,
other than a DOT 4E aluminum cylinder
or a special permit cylinder, permanent
expansion exceeds 10 percent of
total expansion.


"Exceeds" means that up to and including 10% is passing and of course %9 and even %9.9 are passing with a margin.
I had three tanks erroneously condemned (at the same time). IMHO the operator made several mistakes, but the only thing in writing was the 9.2 % and 9.6% permanent expansion in his records. His letter of explanation said that he condemned the tanks due to the permanent expansion. By law he had to replace my tanks, stamping XXX under these conditions was a violation of the codes. Hydro test is not a judgment call; a VIP is to some extent.



There is some good information on the internet (when I get home I will try to add a really good link I found once), but I agree with Scared Silly: “visit your local hydro facility and tell them you want to learn about the process some more.”
 
On average an Al 80 will displace around 70-75 cc of water at 5000psi.

Does this answer your question?

Yep, sure does. I figured it couldn't be much water. I think it's interesting, but I'm not going to visit a hydo facility. That's beyond the limit of my curiosity.

Thanks!

-Charles
 
Interesting enough, the VIP's of the SCUBA tanks are not a DOT regulations but just a SCUBA industry recommendation. If you are not transporting your tanks across states lines, legally, you dont even need a hydro on your scuba tank. Try getting them filled at a LDS without the hydro or VIP is another matter though.
 
So Luis,

Keep in mind I said "may" not "will", nor "should". And that I did not say "condemn", but "unfit to return to service" which could also be "remove from service" or more appropriate "rejected". Both differ from "condemnation" with regard to what options are still open to both the facility and the owner of the tank.

Tank characteristics very from design to design. Some of the PST E series are notorious for having been incorrectly condemned. PST's solution was that you use an allowed "leak check" to pre-stress the tank to 85% of hydro pressure. And still, even after that, many of them will test in the 9%+ PE range. If it was one of these that we are talking about I could or can agree.

However, if we're talking about your average AL80, the norm is to see 0% PE. The idea is to identify tanks that are loosing their elasticity "before" they fail catastrophicly. If a tank is identified as being that close to the pass/fail point with regard to PE and has other characteristics that are also indicative of a tank that is at or nearing it's retirement point, it would be remiss of the tester to not bring it to the attention of any and all involved. To simply stamp the tank as "A O.K." and send it out the door without notation could result in a catastrophy or at the very least a continuation of procedures that are destructive to a tanks longevity.
 

Back
Top Bottom